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The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians ...

Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

They = anyone in a country we are currently attacking.
We = any American that pays their taxes.

Again...Id stick with reality. They being whoever specifically you are talking about and we being...well...you.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

How wrong. However, the actions of rogue soldiers who violate military rules does not reflect upon the US military as a whole. These murderers will be tried and hopefully justice will be served. The US military is an extremely strict organization and does not condone these actions. The military is seeking punishment for the criminals and for justice to prevail in this horrible atrocity.

of course it doesn't reflect on all soldiers.... but if your instinctual reaction is to point that out, then that's a little weird
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

God bless America.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

The US military is an extremely strict organization and does not condone these actions. The military is seeking punishment for the criminals and for justice to prevail in this horrible atrocity.

What about when we let others do dirty things and make laws that prevent whistleblowers? For example: Frago 242. Does that reflect the US military at all? How about those in control of the investigations at least?

Iraq war logs: Secret order that let US ignore abuse | World news | guardian.co.uk
A prisoner was kneeling on the ground, blindfolded and handcuffed, when an Iraqi soldier walked over to him and kicked him in the neck. A US marine sergeant was watching and reported the incident, which was duly recorded and judged to be valid. The outcome: "No investigation required."

That was a relatively minor assault. Another of the leaked Iraqi war logs records the case of a man who was arrested by police on suspicion of preparing a suicide bomb. In the station, an officer shot him in the leg and then, the log continues, this detainee "suffered abuse which amounted to cracked ribs, multiple lacerations and welts and bruises from being whipped with a large rod and hose across his back". This was all recorded and judged to amount to "reasonable suspicion of abuse". The outcome: "No further investigation."

Other logs record not merely assaults but systematic torture. A man who was detained by Iraqi soldiers in an underground bunker reported that he had been subjected to the notoriously painful strappado position: with his hands tied behind his back, he was suspended from the ceiling by his wrists. The soldiers had then whipped him with plastic piping and used electric drills on him. The log records that the man was treated by US medics; the paperwork was sent through the necessary channels; but yet again, no investigation was required.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Right here...

That is not demonizing the US military, it is her saying that if Afghans were to get violent against coalitions forces she wouldn't blame them.

Reading comprehension my friend.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I wish I could say whether this situation was FUBAR or simply SNAFU.

Considering how many people I love that are in the service, this sort of thing always messes with my head.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

There is nothing debatable here. It seems to me that the main intent of the OP is to demonize the US military.

i do not think ignoring the horrors of war would be beneficial.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Obama is the CIC...how could he let this happen?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

What about when we let others do dirty things and make laws that prevent whistleblowers? For example: Frago 242. Does that reflect the US military at all? How about those in control of the investigations at least?

Iraq war logs: Secret order that let US ignore abuse | World news | guardian.co.uk

I get a kick out of these types of posts that constantly try to paint the US as a bad actor on the world stage while when you look at this in context, the Russians do this, the Chinese do this, the Iranians do this, the Egyptians do this,the Saudis ect ect ect. But yet you dont see articles like this on any of them, only on the US and almost always from the far left.

So then tell me, if you were an Iraqi prison guard and you watched your fellow citizens, perhaps family, men women & children die by the thousands at the hands of scum like these, many by bombs which killed hundreds at a time, many rounded up, tied up & shot in the back of the head.

Would you go easy on them if they were on your care? If your family, friends had been victims of these terrorists?

I think you'd be a liar if you said yes , of course you live in a nice place where things like this are rare or none so I doubt you can comprehend the reality of it.

Although I wouldnt condone this type of treatment I cant say I feel sorry for them, I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I get a kick out of these types of posts that constantly try to paint the US as a bad actor on the world stage while when you look at this in context, the Russians do this, the Chinese do this, the Iranians do this, the Egyptians do this,the Saudis ect ect ect. But yet you dont see articles like this on any of them, only on the US and almost always from the far left.

So then tell me, if you were an Iraqi prison guard and you watched your fellow citizens, perhaps family, men women & children die by the thousands at the hands of scum like these, many by bombs which killed hundreds at a time, many rounded up, tied up & shot in the back of the head.

Would you go easy on them if they were on your care? If your family, friends had been victims of these terrorists?

I think you'd be a liar if you said yes , of course you live in a nice place where things like this are rare or none so I doubt you can comprehend the reality of it.

Although I wouldnt condone this type of treatment I cant say I feel sorry for them, I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.


Are you kidding me? The Media makes plenty of countries looks bad. They usually hold the US as a shining example. If China kill its dissenters, it's reported as par for the course because that's what China does. Corruption and abuse of power in Russia, what can we expect of Russia? ME - backward people who like to kill each other and abuse their women (you already hold this stereotype). The US abuse prisoners? MOG, the US is supposed to value freedom, human rights, liberty etc. Maybe it's unfair to hold the US to such a high standard, would you really prefer the US to be seen as a regular Human Rights abuser with no moral weight whatsoever?


It doesn't matter what the Guards have faced, if the guard did something wrong, the system should hold the guard accountable, not let the situation pass - that will only escalate the abuse since they feel they can get away with it.

Human in power abuse others under them even when they haven't experience calamity of their own - see the Standford Prisoner Experiment.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Are you kidding me? The Media makes plenty of countries looks bad. They usually hold the US as a shining example. If China kill its dissenters, it's reported as par for the course because that's what China does. Corruption and abuse of power in Russia, what can we expect of Russia? ME - backward people who like to kill each other and abuse their women (you already hold this stereotype). The US abuse prisoners? MOG, the US is supposed to value freedom, human rights, liberty etc. Maybe it's unfair to hold the US to such a high standard, would you really prefer the US to be seen as a regular Human Rights abuser with no moral weight whatsoever?

It doesn't matter what the Guards have faced, if the guard did something wrong, the system should hold the guard accountable, not let the situation pass - that will only escalate the abuse since they feel they can get away with it.

Human in power abuse others under them even when they haven't experience calamity of their own - see the Standford Prisoner Experiment.

Ah, I think I was trying to point out a difference between treatment of political prisoners during peacetime and treatment of lowlife thug mass murderers during a war and the press not making a distinction or reference. Not that I was excusing any of it. Just that the US has tolerated it from many countries and still did business with them so whats so horrifying that we looked the other way with the Iraqis? Especially considering the circumstances....

And yes the US should try to discourage this type of treatment but we are far from perfect either. Ask any Marine vet from WW2 that fought the Japanese on some of these remote islands what happened with prisoners? Of course it was mostly in retaliation for what happend to our guys.... and of course we shouldnt condone this either but considering the circumstances its not hard see why these things can happen.

As far as your foolish comment that I hold some sterotype about how Women are treated in the ME, it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia. If you dont know this you really need to get educated.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I get a kick out of these types of posts that constantly try to paint the US as a bad actor on the world stage while when you look at this in context, the Russians do this, the Chinese do this, the Iranians do this, the Egyptians do this,the Saudis ect ect ect. But yet you dont see articles like this on any of them, only on the US and almost always from the far left.

So then tell me, if you were an Iraqi prison guard and you watched your fellow citizens, perhaps family, men women & children die by the thousands at the hands of scum like these, many by bombs which killed hundreds at a time, many rounded up, tied up & shot in the back of the head.

Would you go easy on them if they were on your care? If your family, friends had been victims of these terrorists?

I think you'd be a liar if you said yes , of course you live in a nice place where things like this are rare or none so I doubt you can comprehend the reality of it.

Although I wouldnt condone this type of treatment I cant say I feel sorry for them, I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.

The parts of the US that are bad are bad. The parts that are good are good. Period.

I think that the path to nobility involves mostly self refinement. I am not from Russia. I am not from China. I am not from Iran. I am from the US. So I critisize that which I find apalling/malicious in regards to the US.

I think that if someone brutalized me or my family I could not bring myself to attain vengence by drilling into the culprits arm with a power drill. You may think I am a liar but I have forgiven some pretty big things in my life. I wouldnt want a murderer killed. Only locked away and prevented from murdering. The only way I could kill someone is if it was for absolute self defense and I was scared out of my normal thinking. Even if someone where to bust into my house with a gun, I think I would choose (if I thought I had time) to attempt to try and slam my 12 guage slug into their upper arm/shoulder to disarm them and hope they live.

What about innocents that get sent into this proccess and tortured? We cannot allow torture to happen under any circumstance because it would be very easy for people to gain false confessions once the torture mechanism is in place. Having a law that affects the whole militairy, allowing a mechanism for evil to go unchecked, is bad for the whole militairy (and others too). The whole US isnt a bad actor in the world only those in it that are bad. Which is why you should be carefull who you defend.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I want there to not be a law that quashes a grunt from stopping violence. If we see a man torturing another man we stop him and make him familiar with justice. Maybe its time for justice not to be blind and open its ****in eyes. Ill stop with this topic though. Think I've had my say.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Ah, I think I was trying to point out a difference between treatment of political prisoners during peacetime and treatment of lowlife thug mass murderers during a war and the press not making a distinction or reference. Not that I was excusing any of it. Just that the US has tolerated it from many countries and still did business with them so whats so horrifying that we looked the other way with the Iraqis? Especially considering the circumstances....

And yes the US should try to discourage this type of treatment but we are far from perfect either. Ask any Marine vet from WW2 that fought the Japanese on some of these remote islands what happened with prisoners? Of course it was mostly in retaliation for what happend to our guys.... and of course we shouldnt condone this either but considering the circumstances its not hard see why these things can happen.

As far as your foolish comment that I hold some sterotype about how Women are treated in the ME, it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia. If you dont know this you really need to get educated.

You do hold the stereotype, you have demonstrated it twice. First you said: "I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.", then you say "it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia". That it's a "reality" to you is why you hold the stereotype.

I'm sure you realise that not all countries in the ME have Sharia Law, nor are all persons in the ME Muslims. Nor are women automatically abused under sharia law though it's certainly a chauvinistic unjust system. So indeed you do have a stereotype of ME people, and as all stereotype, it's a generalisation that doesn't apply to all. And you should know this since you have argued that actions of some do not apply to all in the US Military.

I don't know the rate of abuse in the ME, but I don't think it's much higher than India where widows are sometimes burnt with their dead husband. Or underdeveloped part of Asia where domestic violence is not socially ostracised still. I have travelled in ME, and though I'm a woman I was not accosted in anyway, nor were other female travellers. Some of the women I met wore Burkas and appeared to be happy. They didn't appear to be that different from the poor people of Asia.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

You do hold the stereotype, you have demonstrated it twice. First you said: "I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.", then you say "it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia". That it's a "reality" to you is why you hold the stereotype.

i've been in those countries. it's a stereotype in the same general sense that it's a stereotype that most Americans breathe air.

I'm sure you realise that not all countries in the ME have Sharia Law, nor are all persons in the ME Muslims.

perhaps you could aquaint me with the large pockets of (say) Jews currently living in (say) Egypt?

Nor are women automatically abused under sharia law

:lamo: no, just raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered.

I don't know the rate of abuse in the ME, but I don't think it's much higher than India where widows are sometimes burnt with their dead husband.

then you are (sadly) very wrong. wife-burning in India are more like honor-killings in the West.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

i've been in those countries. it's a stereotype in the same general sense that it's a stereotype that most Americans breathe air.

So ME people abuse each other every second of everyday?

You were a soldier, have you ever visited that region as a civlian? There were very friendly helpful people to me.

perhaps you could aquaint me with the large pockets of (say) Jews currently living in (say) Egypt?

There's a large pocket of Christians in Egypt, they have thousand years of history. I visited the Hanging Church in Cairo which is more than a thousand years old. BTW, my guides were Christians too.

There are still Jews in Iran. While the Nubians and Beduin professes the Muslims faith, they still have rituals that were pagan-like.

:lamo: no, just raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered.

Where in Sharia law does it say that female will be "raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered" when born as a female?


then you are (sadly) very wrong.

And you know the rate of abuse in the ME VS India?

wife-burning in India are more like honor-killings in the West.

Do you refute that in India women are vulnerable to abuse? From what I know of India, the status with which women are held in the rural areas is not that much better than the ME. In Asia I know that domestic abuse is still accepted in certain areas. Men can do it and get away scot free.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

That is not demonizing the US military, it is her saying that if Afghans were to get violent against coalitions forces she wouldn't blame them.

Reading comprehension my friend.

IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?

How about no? Nice try on twisting my words tho.

Coalition forces will get the brunt and blow black of the actions of a few whether you like it or not.
And honestly, I wouldn't blame any Afghan who is angry about the images acting out. Especially as it was done on civilians and pictured (who does that? :/)

We are already seen as occupiers and invaders (which we are). We have done little in Afghanistan except set off more drugs trade which was lowered by Taliban. Killed god knows how many civilians through direct and indirect actions and have helped support and fund a Government which we know is corrupt.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

So, let me get this straight. You send people somewhere for the sole purpose of killing people,
Yes, they are called the military. Trained to kill, destroy the enemy. It's not a new concept.

then you're angry when they kill people outside of your preferred manner of killing,
Yes. There are rules of engagement for civilized militaries. When those in the military go outside of that engagement they are usually punished under the criminal code.

and when they kill the people you haven't designated okay to kill.
Yes. IF civilians are "targeted", this is not looked upon kindly.

This all comes from a society that says killing is wrong... :confused:
Yes. We have relied on our military and security forces such as police to keep us safe from enemies foreign and domestic.

With these questions and icon used, you seem confused. Have you been raised by Muslim terrorists or Muslim terrorist sympathizers because it seems you are not familiar in the least with how civil society operates. You see, it is not civil to leave your society unprotected from idiots that intend to do harm. Nor is it civil or legal for our military to off civilians. You see, we have standards. High standards.

.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

So ME people abuse each other every second of everyday?

no, but the abuse of women is part of the culture of the middle east - with the notable exception of Israel.

There's a large pocket of Christians in Egypt, they have thousand years of history.

the Copts. you may have read about them recently because there's an active terror campaign against them in that famously tolerant region

There are still Jews in Iran. While the Nubians and Beduin professes the Muslims faith, they still have rituals that were pagan-like.

from wiki: At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000–150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. Over 85% have since migrated to either Israel or the United States, with the migration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000. On March 16, 1979, Habib Elghanian, the honorary leader of the Jewish community, was arrested on charges of "corruption", "contacts with Israel and Zionism", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". He was tried by an Islamic revolutionary tribunal, sentenced to death, and executed on May 8, one of 17 Iranian Jews executed as spies since the revolution. Estimates of the Jewish population in Iran vary. In mid- and late 1980s, it was estimated at 20,000–30,000, rising to around 35,000 in mid-1990s, and estimated at less than 40,000 nowadays, with around 25,000 residing in Tehran. However, Iran's Jewish community still remains the largest in the Middle East outside of Israel...

ah, good old tolerant Iran.... good old Holocaust Denial Symposium Hosting Tolerant Iran..... where women are stoned to death.

Where in Sharia law does it say that female will be "raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered" when born as a female?

i agree it's not automatic; but gee whiz isn't it interesting how it always happens?

Do you refute that in India women are vulnerable to abuse?

nope, do you refute that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings?

In Asia I know that domestic abuse is still accepted in certain areas. Men can do it and get away scot free.

yes. especially concentrated in central asia. where pashtunwali is the law.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?

Very poor indeed.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

no, but the abuse of women is part of the culture of the middle east - with the notable exception of Israel.

That is the stereotype...which doesn't bear out among the people I met.


the Copts. you may have read about them recently because there's an active terror campaign against them in that famously tolerant region

I have also read about Americans' hate crimes against Muslims.


from wiki: At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000–150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. Over 85% have since migrated to either Israel or the United States, with the migration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000. On March 16, 1979, Habib Elghanian, the honorary leader of the Jewish community, was arrested on charges of "corruption", "contacts with Israel and Zionism", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". He was tried by an Islamic revolutionary tribunal, sentenced to death, and executed on May 8, one of 17 Iranian Jews executed as spies since the revolution. Estimates of the Jewish population in Iran vary. In mid- and late 1980s, it was estimated at 20,000–30,000, rising to around 35,000 in mid-1990s, and estimated at less than 40,000 nowadays, with around 25,000 residing in Tehran. However, Iran's Jewish community still remains the largest in the Middle East outside of Israel...

ah, good old tolerant Iran.... good old Holocaust Denial Symposium Hosting Tolerant Iran..... where women are stoned to death.

How does this dispute the fact that there are Jews in Iran?


i agree it's not automatic; but gee whiz isn't it interesting how it always happens?

Does it "always" happen?

I don't doubt that abuse of women is high. But it's a stereotype that says the ME is a worse culprit than other regions. I have traveled to many parts of the world and I don't see them as that much worse with regards to treatment of women.

Do you know that every year, nearly 5 million women experience abuse at their partner's hand in America? That 1 in 4 American women will experience domestic violence?


nope, do you refute that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings?

Yes, I dispute that. Statistically, I don't think that Muslim women are killed at a higher rate than other races in Western countries. In America, Black women are more likely to be hurt by their partners. When so-called "honour-killing" happens it hits the headline hard because of the anti-Muslim prejudice. I worry more about domestic abuse than honor-killing itself. Women everywhere, not just the ME, still face too high a rate of abuse, killing (with so-called "honour" or not) is an extreme from of that.




yes. especially concentrated in central asia. where pashtunwali is the law.

Wrong. In some part of rural SEA with Buddhism as the dominant religion domestic violence is still not socially ostracized.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Very poor indeed.

And, insulting other posters is really the only argument you have. Yes?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

And, insulting other posters is really the only argument you have. Yes?

You asked about your reading comprehension, I answered. I can't help it if the answer is an insult to you, it's the honest answer. It wasn't even meant as an arguement to anything since you didn't make any valid point. Go back and read the post, where did she say that "all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few"?
 
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