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The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians ...

Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Your mistake is in portraying the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan as wars.

counterinsurgency is indeed warfare.

That is completely irrelevant.

actually it is relevant. there is a world of difference between shooting an unarmed forward observor as he radios your pos into a mortar pit vs dragging someone out of their house at random.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

when the factual behavior of demons is made public that is hardly demonizing

but that you find it so certainly explains some administrative actions

i think the bit was a bit over the top in trying to ascribe negative or conspiratorial motives to trying to keep those photos off of the internet. there is nothing wrong with not wishing to inflame the situation further. as the trial progresses, their actions will become public knowledge, so it's not like anything is being hidden; we are simply denying the enemy an IO weapon.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

True that.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Your mistake is in portraying the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan as wars.



What on earth are you going on about.




That is completely irrelevant.


You said when done as a group it's "collateral damage" meaning it's "okay". I'm merely trying to illustrate that certain behaviours are not okay even if the majority engage in it or the military condones it.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

certainly so, but i would argue there are still extenuating circumstances for some kills that turn out to be illigetimate. often you don't have a clear good-guy-bad-guy dichotomy available to you in the second and a half that you have to make a decision; and after the noise is over, you've got a body. the natural impulse is to highlight the reasons why the man was guilty and why the decision to shoot was the right one. we blew an elderly man to bits in front of his entire family. why? because he accelerated a bongo truck at us after we tried to get him to stop and slow down, and it simply wasn't worth the risk that he was an SVBIED. that doesn't make him any less ultimately innocent, or any less dead. and yeah, we threw out flags and popped some smoke afterwards and Everyone Agreed that we had gone through the Entire Official Order ROE Procedure (magically, in the 3 seconds that we had after he hit the accelerator before it would have been too late) rather than simply waved a hand, a flag, and shot the grill of his vehicle.

even the man's family said that they didn't hold us responsible. of course, we were all holding big guns and we had just blown apart their grandad, so they may have been telling us what they thought we wanted to hear. i guess i'm just trying to point out that - as obviously insanely evil as this looks - that sometimes these things can become so befuddled and grey as to defy simple analysis. I can think offhand of several Iraqi's that i know to be responsible for the deaths of good men that I would willingly murder given the ability and opportunity.

According to the source article, the kills where planned, not accidents of war. That is what I was basing my comment on.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

i think the bit was a bit over the top in trying to ascribe negative or conspiratorial motives to trying to keep those photos off of the internet. there is nothing wrong with not wishing to inflame the situation further. as the trial progresses, their actions will become public knowledge, so it's not like anything is being hidden; we are simply denying the enemy an IO weapon.


I question the claim that owning to what is likely to come out anyway is allowing "the enemy an IO weapon". If the military owns it quickly, apologise voluntarily and take actions to prosecute the soldiers promptly, that will give a better impression of the military and reenforce the arguement that this kind of action is not condoned by the US military and weaken any attempt by the other side to use the situation to inflame anti-US sentiments in Afghanistan.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

.. and posed with their dead bodies.

Afghan Abu Ghraib ... except worse :/


Wouldn't blame Afghans if they got violent against the Soldiers. Some of the photos are just horrible and just imagine ... there was 4,000 found.

I'm not even going to post the photos. It should be in the link.
The 'Kill Team' Images: US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

I don't know which bit is the worst part. The idea the photos were attempted to be hidden by the US or the apology only came when they got leaked :doh

Edit: Please merge if a thread has already been made on it. Couldn't see it on BN

I'm not going to let this anger or hurt me. Because that's what they want.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

It's very foolish, as some have argued, to try to make the point that mentioning this is some kind of liberal attack on the armed forces. This is a debate forum and there's clearly something to discuss here. If you want to stifle discussion I suggest you find other forums to impose your gag on.

It's interesting to see a high level of agreement between ideologically opposed posters. I have to say I have agreed more with cpwill and MaggieD in this thread than I have in most others. Will's especially correct when he asks who the victims were. Like it or not, it does make a difference. Are we dealing with murder of innocents or the descration of the bodies of enemies combatants? Neither is acceptable, but there is a world of difference in the severity of the two offences.

I've no idea who the noob is trying to justify the photos, but it's patently clear that they are not acceptable materials to be circulating around the world's media. They are evidence of some degree of misbehaviour, we'll just have to wait and see what precisely they depict.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I'm not going to let this anger or hurt me. Because that's what they want.

WRONG THREAD. I did NOT mean that comment in regard to this thread - please - no one take offense!

My real response to this thread is: I don't get why people take photos and videos and then expect to NOT get in trouble for it. . . The stupidity of generation 'D'. 'D' for 'Dumb****'
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I wonder if he notices the first person to defend the military and the US in this was...a liberal.

That's why my post wasn't aimed at YOU. I'm well aware of your respect for the military, obvious since you were in it.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I have always wondered how Americans can commit this kind of atrocity.

All humans are capable of atrocity. It's in our genes.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Pretty sure heroin abuse does not cause the taker to become violent or psychopathic. I very much doubt opiate abuse is a factor. Amphetamines, perhaps.
Alkaloids have effects on behavior other than the immediate effects of the drugs themselves while they are in a person's system.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

.. and posed with their dead bodies.

Afghan Abu Ghraib ... except worse :/


Wouldn't blame Afghans if they got violent against the Soldiers. Some of the photos are just horrible and just imagine ... there was 4,000 found.

I'm not even going to post the photos. It should be in the link.
The 'Kill Team' Images: US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

I don't know which bit is the worst part. The idea the photos were attempted to be hidden by the US or the apology only came when they got leaked :doh

Edit: Please merge if a thread has already been made on it. Couldn't see it on BN

Nothing but shock value...

We all have our 10% (every profession has it).
The 10% Rule is as constant as the flow and ebb of the tides and the rise and set of the sun.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

But circumstances rendering we are still missing the other side of the story or if we arent I have not read it.
Admitting guilt doesn't lead me to believe that the circumstances of the events are very exculpatory.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

All humans are capable of atrocity. It's in our genes.

Heh, the genetic argument.

We also have the capacity for great goodness. Whichever side we decide to nurture becomes dominant. You can't blame savagery on our genes, but our choices.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

A family friend described just "some" of his experiences in Viet Nam. He was a point man. Wounded twice. Glad to be alive. That was another war where our soldiers weren't sure who their enemies were. Kids, old men and women booby-trapped; American soldiers booby-trapped so when we tried to collect our dead, we'd lose a few more in the process. Horrendous atrocities done to our soldiers -- some while they were dead...some while they were still alive. He's got some real horror stories...some of which he hasn't told me, but has told Tom.

One story he told was when they were being over-run by the North Vietnamese, their South Viet compadres were going to hide in a huge bunker with them. They told the South Vietnamese they were on their own and were prepared to machine-gun every last one of them had they entered the bunker. They did not trust them.

War is hell. On a side note -- off topic -- if we put our guys into Libya, I think the president should be impeached. And I've never said that before in my life.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Civilians always die in war. "Way back in the old days", killing villagers and destroying the whole village to deny the enemy santuary was a legitimate war tactic.

We as a military in modern warfare traditionally avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. Especially in this theater we understand that killing civilians does not enhance our mission...it inhibits it. We arent trying to kill as many people as we can. We arent trying just to defeat an enemy. The war against Iraq and Afghanistan ended a long time ago. We arent at war with either country. We are attempting to work with their governments, police forces, and military to help train them to do the job so that we wont have to. Killing civilians...especially intentionally targeting civilians is more than repugnant and wrong...its also bad business. Every act...every photograph...puts good soldiers in greater harm. If these people are convicted I would strip them of their uniforms and turn them directly over to the people of Afghanistan.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

We as a military in modern warfare traditionally avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. Especially in this theater we understand that killing civilians does not enhance our mission...it inhibits it. We arent trying to kill as many people as we can. We arent trying just to defeat an enemy. The war against Iraq and Afghanistan ended a long time ago. We arent at war with either country. We are attempting to work with their governments, police forces, and military to help train them to do the job so that we wont have to. Killing civilians...especially intentionally targeting civilians is more than repugnant and wrong...its also bad business. Every act...every photograph...puts good soldiers in greater harm. If these people are convicted I would strip them of their uniforms and turn them directly over to the people of Afghanistan.

^^ *Chills*
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

^ I've been told stories by some Vietnam vets of raping (literally) village people and setting it ablaze. American soldiers had total power there to do what they wanted, especially the units that were temporarily without command. If you get the vets drunk enough, they'll talk about anything.

I agree that war is hell, and without the rules of civilization and government, people would do that kind of thing. People need to be good because it is their moral imperative, not just because. It tends to be the "just because" good people who end up committing heinous acts once the watchful eye is absent.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I have always wondered how Americans can commit this kind of atrocity.

Do you wonder? Soldiers are people. They come from the American community. Hell...how many people on this site play violent video games where they take great pleasure and glory in killing as many people as they can. Soldiers...even healthy and well trained soldiers...are placed in a scenario where there is no regeneration...no pause button...no offers to limit the levels of violence. These guys have to do daily for real what people do daily for fun. It isnt shocking that the occasional predator will commit attrocities like these. I recall a gang of 18+ men recently raping an 11 year old...and then videotaping the act.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Heh, the genetic argument.

We also have the capacity for great goodness. Whichever side we decide to nurture becomes dominant. You can't blame savagery on our genes, but our choices.

Of course we make the choice. I'm just saying that people wonder how it's possible, well look at human nature and history. We do this all the time. Humans can be very savage animals.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Now imagine how often this happens. People that do nasty/tricky things are good at not getting caught. How many more deaths have come from the hands of someone that wants to rack up their kill count using civs? Why are THEY terrorists but WE aren't when our people do this? Are Arabs so non-human that we have to enable situations that can allow this? How can anyone argue that we are in Afgan for the greater good? Its just full of kids with really, really big and dangerous toys.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

So, let me get this straight. You send people somewhere for the sole purpose of killing people, then you're angry when they kill people outside of your preferred manner of killing, and when they kill the people you haven't designated okay to kill. This all comes from a society that says killing is wrong... :confused:

Yes, you should try to get it straight. Perhaps you should enlist in the Marines so you can learn what the function of the military is for instead of spouting off the nonsense you are?

The military exists to kill the right people, to break the right equipment, and resolve the issues the politicians failed to resolve.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I have always wondered how Americans can commit this kind of atrocity. .

ted bundy, john wayne gacy, jeffrey dahmer, dennis rader (aka BTK killer), the list goes on and on.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Now imagine how often this happens. People that do nasty/tricky things are good at not getting caught. How many more deaths have come from the hands of someone that wants to rack up their kill count using civs? Why are THEY terrorists but WE aren't when our people do this? Are Arabs so non-human that we have to enable situations that can allow this? How can anyone argue that we are in Afgan for the greater good? Its just full of kids with really, really big and dangerous toys.

Who exactly is this THEY and WE you speak of? THEY, being the actual people that kill or maim ARE terrorists...or murderers. I dont know of this mythical 'we'.

For one thing...I dont know how many of 'we' have ever been in a conflict situation, faced down the end of a barrel, been tasked with the choice to pull a trigger or not, or basically done anything more than the very stressful act of deciding which pair of socks matches your shoes. For that matter how many have had to pay their own bills and are still living off mommy and daddy's credit card? How many adequately provide for a family? How many have made the conscious decision to go ahead and slip their hands down someone elses pants at a party, knowing that person was too drunk to give proper consent. Oh...we could go on and on about the varying levels of deciet or the ways we justify moral inconvenience.

OR we can stick with the reality that terrorists are terrorists and murderous scumbags are murderous scumbags. We dont fully know what these 12 accused men are...yet. We will have a trial and find out. Label THEM at that time. WE dont carry their labels.
 
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