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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    So ME people abuse each other every second of everyday?
    no, but the abuse of women is part of the culture of the middle east - with the notable exception of Israel.

    There's a large pocket of Christians in Egypt, they have thousand years of history.
    the Copts. you may have read about them recently because there's an active terror campaign against them in that famously tolerant region

    There are still Jews in Iran. While the Nubians and Beduin professes the Muslims faith, they still have rituals that were pagan-like.
    from wiki: At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. Over 85% have since migrated to either Israel or the United States, with the migration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000. On March 16, 1979, Habib Elghanian, the honorary leader of the Jewish community, was arrested on charges of "corruption", "contacts with Israel and Zionism", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". He was tried by an Islamic revolutionary tribunal, sentenced to death, and executed on May 8, one of 17 Iranian Jews executed as spies since the revolution. Estimates of the Jewish population in Iran vary. In mid- and late 1980s, it was estimated at 20,00030,000, rising to around 35,000 in mid-1990s, and estimated at less than 40,000 nowadays, with around 25,000 residing in Tehran. However, Iran's Jewish community still remains the largest in the Middle East outside of Israel...

    ah, good old tolerant Iran.... good old Holocaust Denial Symposium Hosting Tolerant Iran..... where women are stoned to death.

    Where in Sharia law does it say that female will be "raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered" when born as a female?
    i agree it's not automatic; but gee whiz isn't it interesting how it always happens?

    Do you refute that in India women are vulnerable to abuse?
    nope, do you refute that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings?

    In Asia I know that domestic abuse is still accepted in certain areas. Men can do it and get away scot free.
    yes. especially concentrated in central asia. where pashtunwali is the law.

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?
    Very poor indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, but the abuse of women is part of the culture of the middle east - with the notable exception of Israel.
    That is the stereotype...which doesn't bear out among the people I met.


    the Copts. you may have read about them recently because there's an active terror campaign against them in that famously tolerant region
    I have also read about Americans' hate crimes against Muslims.


    from wiki: At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000–150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. Over 85% have since migrated to either Israel or the United States, with the migration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000. On March 16, 1979, Habib Elghanian, the honorary leader of the Jewish community, was arrested on charges of "corruption", "contacts with Israel and Zionism", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". He was tried by an Islamic revolutionary tribunal, sentenced to death, and executed on May 8, one of 17 Iranian Jews executed as spies since the revolution. Estimates of the Jewish population in Iran vary. In mid- and late 1980s, it was estimated at 20,000–30,000, rising to around 35,000 in mid-1990s, and estimated at less than 40,000 nowadays, with around 25,000 residing in Tehran. However, Iran's Jewish community still remains the largest in the Middle East outside of Israel...

    ah, good old tolerant Iran.... good old Holocaust Denial Symposium Hosting Tolerant Iran..... where women are stoned to death.
    How does this dispute the fact that there are Jews in Iran?


    i agree it's not automatic; but gee whiz isn't it interesting how it always happens?
    Does it "always" happen?

    I don't doubt that abuse of women is high. But it's a stereotype that says the ME is a worse culprit than other regions. I have traveled to many parts of the world and I don't see them as that much worse with regards to treatment of women.

    Do you know that every year, nearly 5 million women experience abuse at their partner's hand in America? That 1 in 4 American women will experience domestic violence?


    nope, do you refute that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings?
    Yes, I dispute that. Statistically, I don't think that Muslim women are killed at a higher rate than other races in Western countries. In America, Black women are more likely to be hurt by their partners. When so-called "honour-killing" happens it hits the headline hard because of the anti-Muslim prejudice. I worry more about domestic abuse than honor-killing itself. Women everywhere, not just the ME, still face too high a rate of abuse, killing (with so-called "honour" or not) is an extreme from of that.




    yes. especially concentrated in central asia. where pashtunwali is the law.
    Wrong. In some part of rural SEA with Buddhism as the dominant religion domestic violence is still not socially ostracized.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-24-11 at 05:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Very poor indeed.
    And, insulting other posters is really the only argument you have. Yes?

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, insulting other posters is really the only argument you have. Yes?
    You asked about your reading comprehension, I answered. I can't help it if the answer is an insult to you, it's the honest answer. It wasn't even meant as an arguement to anything since you didn't make any valid point. Go back and read the post, where did she say that "all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few"?
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-25-11 at 06:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    That is the stereotype...which doesn't bear out among the people I met.
    and is the experience that myself and others with multiple years in the region have seen born out.

    I have also read about Americans' hate crimes against Muslims.
    hate crimses in America = mosque vandalization. everybody hand-wrings, tears our hair and wails in public about insensitivity.

    hate crimes in Egypt = a church full of innocent people getting blown up and children were torn into shreds. police shrug, move on, then turn on the copts when they protest.

    you'd have to have the reasoning capacity of ghaddafi to make that into an equivalency.

    How does this dispute the fact that there are Jews in Iran?
    there were blacks in the post-Reconstruction South and Jews in Germany circa 1944; that doesn't make either of those regimes 'tolerant'

    Does it "always" happen?
    if you would like to cite for me the tolerant sharia-goverened society; i would be fascinated to learn about it.

    I don't doubt that abuse of women is high. But it's a stereotype that says the ME is a worse culprit than other regions.
    if it's a stereotype then it's a stereotype with a strong basis in reality.

    I have traveled to many parts of the world and I don't see them as that much worse with regards to treatment of women.
    in Pakistan, you can kill your daughter or wife, and no one really gives a rats' a--. It's like you killed your donkey. I have traveled over a large portion of the Mediteranean, and - again isn't it odd - in non muslim countries i saw women allowed to wander around without male chaperones, and some of them (but then, this was uber liberal europe where they just let women do anything) were allowed to drive! without a hair covering or anything - whores that they were. hopefully their male relatives beat them to death with chains for their evil, slut ways.

    Do you know that every year, nearly 5 million women experience abuse at their partner's hand in America? That 1 in 4 American women will experience domestic violence?
    yeah, and i know that that statistic defines "domestic violence" to include any number of non-physical activities so as to produce a more shocking statistic. sort of like when they start screaming about how 2/3rds of college women at X School are raped, beaten, molested, sexually harrassed, whistled at, checked out, asked to go on a date...

    but since we're passing along statistic, here's a fun one: UNICEF figures that two-thirds of all killings in the Palestinian territories are honor killings. and palestine is one of the governments that actually claims to punish it! In Saudi Arabia a man killed his daughter for talking to a boy on facebook... and the judge blamed facebook.

    Yes, I dispute that.
    you dispute that there are honor killings in the West? really?

    Statistically, I don't think that Muslim women are killed at a higher rate than other races in Western countries
    then sadly you are very wrong. for a quick point of reference, let's turn to ole wiki to see how that pashtunwali i referenced earlier is working out in Pakistan:

    Statistically, honor killings have a high level of support in Pakistan's rural society, despite widespread condemnation from human rights groups. In 2002 alone over 382 people, about 245 women and 137 men, became victims of honor killings in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Over the course of six years, more than 4,000 women have died as victims of honour killings in Pakistan from 1999 to 2004. In 2005 the average annual number of honor killings for the whole nation was stated to be more than 10,000 per year. According to women's rights advocates, the concepts of women as property, and of honor, are so deeply entrenched in the social, political and economic fabric of Pakistan that the government mostly ignores the regular occurrences of women being killed and maimed by their families." Frequently, women killed in "honour" killings are recorded as having committed suicide or died in accidents...

    In America, Black women are more likely to be hurt by their partners. When so-called "honour-killing" happens it hits the headline hard because of the anti-Muslim prejudice.
    when honor killing happens in the west it hits the headlines hard because here in the west we consider it horrific. because we think stuff like this is a special level of human rights abuse:

    ...investigators were already handling honor killing incidents in 1989, and likely even before that. In all cases, the victims were daughters, wives or sisters, killed by fathers (sometimes mothers), husbands or brothers for "dishonoring" the family: by requesting a divorce, by dating before marriage, by refusing to accept an arranged spouse, by having non-Muslim friends.

    What no one mentions, however, is the other dirty secret of Muslim families, even in the West: honor violence--the abuse that results not in death, but devastation. Tantamount, at times, to torture, honor violence occurs far more frequently than honor killings, with effects that in some ways could be described as worse.

    How bad is it? In 2008 British studies counted nearly 17,000 incidents of honor violence annually, including kidnappings, sexual abuse and murder. Every week, according to an article in the Independent, British organizations rescued three girls from Islamabad--some of them as young as 11--sent there by their parents to be married. These girls often are raped by their much older husbands, who may also use the marriage to immigrate to Europe, continuing the abusive treatment of their brides there as well. Usually, too, the daughters of such couples are kept at home, forbidden to live the lives of Western women, and in turn, married off themselves, probably to a family cousin also in Islamabad--and so the chain continues...

    It is a vague term, “honor violence.” But it is not, as some might argue, equivalent to domestic abuse; and it is crucial to stop equating the two, both for the sake of the victims and in order to better identify--and prosecute--the abusers.

    Unlike domestic violence, honor violence revolves around a set of religious codes, aimed at depriving women (and sometimes men) of freedom and at subjugating free will. As one Dutch-Afghan woman put it when a neighbor was murdered by her husband: “She deserved it. She knew the rules.”

    More importantly, honor violence--and honor killings--carry a seal of approval from the family and community at large: Indeed, often those who beat their daughters or lock them in their rooms, or burn their faces to disfigure them, do so reluctantly, under pressure from the family. And therefore it becomes perhaps the most underreported crime in the West--including the U.S...

    New York’s Sakhi Center, which recently found that over 40% of the South Asian women living around Boston had suffered family violence... So why does the public at large know so little about it?

    Enter the political correctness of the media, of editors who refuse to state the true religious motivations behind such despicable crimes, who treat them like “ordinary” domestic violence cases, or--worse--refuse to cover them at all.

    But the truth is: Where there are honor killings, there is violence--and more of it than we know...
    Wrong. In some part of rural SEA with Buddhism as the dominant religion domestic violence is still not socially ostracized.
    as opposed to general muslim society in the Middle East, and often in the West, where domestic violence to include murder is encouraged. encouraged? what hyperbole! what? huddud law? never heard of it - why do you ask?

    and SEA? heavy muslim community. Indonesia, for example, is the largest muslim nation in existance.

    in Bangladesh recently, for example:

    ...A 14-year-old girl named Hena has been killed by fewer than 80 lashes of the 100-lash whipping local sharia authorities had ordered her to suffer. It’s difficult to contain one’s anger at the details. Hena had been raped by a 40-year-old Muslim man, described in news accounts as her “relative.” The allegation of rape got the authorities involved, but that turned out to be even worse than the sexual assault itself.

    Under sharia, rape cannot be proved absent the testimony of four witnesses. Rapists tend not to bring witnesses along for their attacks. In any event, moreover, sharia values a woman’s testimony as only half that of a man, so the deck is stacked and rape cannot be proved in most cases. Yet that hardly means the report of rape is of no consequence. Unable to establish that she’d been forcibly violated, the teenager became in the eyes of the sharia court a woman who’d had sexual intercourse outside of marriage. Thus the draconian lashing sentence that became a death sentence....


    being the well-traveled individual you are, you know as well as I do that the Indians are the Middle Easts' Mexicans; they mass-immigrate in, and perform much of the labor. I got to spend about a month in Bahrain, and got to see first hand the sharp differences in the relationships between the genders of these two cultures; and the parallels that you are drawing are ridiculous. one quick personal example: i walked into a shop in the UAE to purchase a blouse for my wife, and the woman at the counter (the store was owned by an Indian couple) quickly came over to my side to help me pick out a size, a color, design, and upsell me on some jewelry. at the time i was pretty sure i was getting taken on the jewelry, but i've seen the wife wear the shirt once and the bangle all the time; which i suppose tells you everything you need to know about my grasp of fashion. but the point is that the woman felt no fear or compunction whatsoever about walking straight up to a strange western male and engaging him. probably because she knew that her husband wouldn't break her jaw for doing so. i've spent probably a little over 2 years in the mediterranean/ME and i can't offhand think of a single time that a muslim woman has ever approached me or, and, frankly, that i have ever spoken with one. why? because they know that their husbands will.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-25-11 at 09:22 AM.

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and is the experience that myself and others with multiple years in the region have seen born out.
    And I asked you if you have ever been there as a civilian, or in any place other than Iraq?

    And what kind of abuse did the women suffered daily?


    hate crimses in America = mosque vandalization. everybody hand-wrings, tears our hair and wails in public about insensitivity.

    hate crimes in Egypt = a church full of innocent people getting blown up and children were torn into shreds. police shrug, move on, then turn on the copts when they protest.

    you'd have to have the reasoning capacity of ghaddafi to make that into an equivalency.
    Did I say the handling by the police are the same?

    I pointed out that hate crime occurs in the US too - and that is fact.


    there were blacks in the post-Reconstruction South and Jews in Germany circa 1944; that doesn't make either of those regimes 'tolerant'
    Where did I claim that they were 'tolerant'?


    if you would like to cite for me the tolerant sharia-goverened society; i would be fascinated to learn about it.
    Again, please find where I said that Sharia Law is tolerant - I believe my exact words were: a chauvinistic and unjust system. Is that the definition of "tolerant" to you?

    And how many countries adopt Sharia Law word for word? Saudi Arabia is close (also a US ally), Taliban (came to power with US help), Iran maybe, Iraq was ruled by an almost secular despot. Jordon, Syria, Egypt, the UAE all have constitutions and legislatures that only incorporate certain elements of Sharia Law. So does countries like Indonesia and Malaysia.


    if it's a stereotype then it's a stereotype with a strong basis in reality.
    Which reality? According to statistics that just isn't true: India reports 45% of women being abused, Egyptian 35% and Israel 32%.

    It's as much valid a stereotype as the stereotype that Americans are loud and rude tourists.


    in Pakistan, you can kill your daughter or wife, and no one really gives a rats' a--. It's like you killed your donkey.
    Hyperbole again. Honor-killing is a crime in Pakistan and there has been convictions.

    I have traveled over a large portion of the Mediteranean, and - again isn't it odd - in non muslim countries i saw women allowed to wander around without male chaperones, and some of them (but then, this was uber liberal europe where they just let women do anything) were allowed to drive! without a hair covering or anything - whores that they were. hopefully their male relatives beat them to death with chains for their evil, slut ways.
    Is that how you refer to women: as "whore" and "slut"?

    Are we then equating being forced to wear a veil as abuse?


    yeah, and i know that that statistic defines "domestic violence" to include any number of non-physical activities so as to produce a more shocking statistic. sort of like when they start screaming about how 2/3rds of college women at X School are raped, beaten, molested, sexually harrassed, whistled at, checked out, asked to go on a date...
    So you use hyperbole to characterise the abuse in the Middle East but trivialise the abuse in your own country. That's insulting to the women of America. The statistic is produced by the CDC, it states clearly that it is "intimate partner related physical assaults and rapes" and here's another one detailing the injury, please see if those meet your definition of "domestic violence" in America (because in somewhere else being forced to wear hair covering seems to be enough to classify as "abuse"): Victims Of Intimate Partner Violence Display Distinct Patterns Of Facial Injury.

    but since we're passing along statistic, here's a fun one: UNICEF figures that two-thirds of all killings in the Palestinian territories are honor killings. and palestine is one of the governments that actually claims to punish it! In Saudi Arabia a man killed his daughter for talking to a boy on facebook... and the judge blamed facebook.
    Where is the statistic?


    then sadly you are very wrong. for a quick point of reference, let's turn to ole wiki to see how that pashtunwali i referenced earlier is working out in Pakistan:
    I am not wrong. In Western countries, Muslims women are not killed at a higher rate than other races. In America, Black women are the most likely to be killed by a partner. Show me a reliable statistic that dispute these facts.

    Statistically, honor killings have a high level of support in Pakistan's rural society, despite widespread condemnation from human rights groups. In 2002 alone over 382 people, about 245 women and 137 men, became victims of honor killings in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Over the course of six years, more than 4,000 women have died as victims of honour killings in Pakistan from 1999 to 2004. In 2005 the average annual number of honor killings for the whole nation was stated to be more than 10,000 per year. According to women's rights advocates, the concepts of women as property, and of honor, are so deeply entrenched in the social, political and economic fabric of Pakistan that the government mostly ignores the regular occurrences of women being killed and maimed by their families." Frequently, women killed in "honour" killings are recorded as having committed suicide or died in accidents...
    That is in Pakistan, not the West. And BTW, I note that you have referred to Pakistan quite often. Pakistan is not part of the ME, it is Asia, which reinforces my arguement earlier that the ME is not worse than other region. Pakistan and Indian women are just as vulnerable to abuse as ME women.


    when honor killing happens in the west it hits the headlines hard because here in the west we consider it horrific. because we think stuff like this is a special level of human rights abuse:
    Also because it's doesn't happen all that often. Seriously, I don't see how father killing their daughter for going out with a boy he doesn't like is worse than a Father who kills his whole family because he's out of a job, or a mother who shoot her children because they talk back. Those stories are sensational and rare and that's why they hit the headlines.


    as opposed to general muslim society in the Middle East, and often in the West, where domestic violence to include murder is encouraged. encouraged? what hyperbole? what? huddud law? never heard of them - why do you ask?
    Not as oppose. Have you not been following the arguement - the violence are everywhere, not just the ME.

    You use hyperbole, you know you use hyperbole, but you can't argue anything without using hyperbole because your arguement is just not back by actual object facts.


    and SEA? heavy muslim community.

    Not in Most parts of Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Lao. Go the rural parts, and domestic abuse is still not socially ostracised. If you tell some of them they are wrong to hit their wife, they look at you as if you are from a different planet.

    in Bangladesh recently, for example:

    ...A 14-year-old girl named Hena has been killed by fewer than 80 lashes of the 100-lash whipping local sharia authorities had ordered her to suffer. It’s difficult to contain one’s anger at the details. Hena had been raped by a 40-year-old Muslim man, described in news accounts as her “relative.” The allegation of rape got the authorities involved, but that turned out to be even worse than the sexual assault itself.

    Under sharia, rape cannot be proved absent the testimony of four witnesses. Rapists tend not to bring witnesses along for their attacks. In any event, moreover, sharia values a woman’s testimony as only half that of a man, so the deck is stacked and rape cannot be proved in most cases. Yet that hardly means the report of rape is of no consequence. Unable to establish that she’d been forcibly violated, the teenager became in the eyes of the sharia court a woman who’d had sexual intercourse outside of marriage. Thus the draconian lashing sentence that became a death sentence....
    I hope you know that Bangladesh was broken off from India with alot of Indian culture and is not part of the ASEAN that we refers to as SEA. And again, you merely prove that areas outside of the ME are as prone to abusing women as the ME.

    being the well-traveled individual you are, you know as well as I do that the Indians are the Middle Easts' Mexicans; they mass-immigrate in, and perform much of the labor. I got to spend about a month in Bahrain, and got to see first hand the sharp differences in the relationships between the genders of these two cultures; and the parallels that you are drawing are ridiculous. one quick personal example: i walked into a shop in the UAE to purchase a blouse for my wife, and the woman at the counter (the store was owned by an Indian couple) quickly came over to my side to help me pick out a size, a color, design, and upsell me on some jewelry. at the time i was pretty sure i was getting taken on the jewelry, but i've seen the wife wear the shirt once and the bangle all the time; which i suppose tells you everything you need to know about my grasp of fashion. but the point is that the woman felt no fear or compunction whatsoever about walking straight up to a strange western male and engaging him. probably because she knew that her husband wouldn't break her jaw for doing so. i've spent probably a little over 2 years in the mediterranean/ME and i can't offhand think of a single time that a muslim woman has ever approached me or, and, frankly, that i have ever spoken with one.

    I don't think Indian are the "ME-Mexican", that Indian has a wide diaspora, much like the Chinese, is well known (at least I thought so), they have large communities in Africa, SEA, England. And my parallel is not ridiculous. The rate of abuse in India is high, so I believe is the ME. I have mentioned that I have traveled to the Middle East, some of my companions were white male, and the women there had no problem interacting with them either.

    I find it strange that you can claim that women of the ME are abused as a matter of course without ever having spoken with one. That is one of the most ridiculous thing I've seen you done.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-25-11 at 10:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    nope, do you refute that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings?
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    you dispute that there are honor killings in the West? really?
    I dispute that "that muslim women in the west are vulnerable to honor killings". I have already explained why but I will do so again: women in the west (regardless of race or religion) are vulnerable to domestic abuse. Black women are the most vulnerable, not Muslims women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Well it says something about the military and their role in these countries as occupiers that this is even possible.
    What it says is that 99.99% of our military members are risking their lives to protect civilians in those "occupied" lands.

    There are those who base their opinions about the US military soley on the actions of the remaining 0.01%.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    What it says is that 99.99% of our military members are risking their lives to protect civilians in those "occupied" lands.

    There are those who base their opinions about the US military soley on the actions of the remaining 0.01%.
    And then there are those who wiegh both sides. And soldiers running around picking up detached heads and taking pictures is a really big thing. Im glad these ****ers got caught and I hope anyone that was malicious gets caught and not just the whistleblower.
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