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Thread: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians ...

  1. #111
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Are you kidding me? The Media makes plenty of countries looks bad. They usually hold the US as a shining example. If China kill its dissenters, it's reported as par for the course because that's what China does. Corruption and abuse of power in Russia, what can we expect of Russia? ME - backward people who like to kill each other and abuse their women (you already hold this stereotype). The US abuse prisoners? MOG, the US is supposed to value freedom, human rights, liberty etc. Maybe it's unfair to hold the US to such a high standard, would you really prefer the US to be seen as a regular Human Rights abuser with no moral weight whatsoever?

    It doesn't matter what the Guards have faced, if the guard did something wrong, the system should hold the guard accountable, not let the situation pass - that will only escalate the abuse since they feel they can get away with it.

    Human in power abuse others under them even when they haven't experience calamity of their own - see the Standford Prisoner Experiment.
    Ah, I think I was trying to point out a difference between treatment of political prisoners during peacetime and treatment of lowlife thug mass murderers during a war and the press not making a distinction or reference. Not that I was excusing any of it. Just that the US has tolerated it from many countries and still did business with them so whats so horrifying that we looked the other way with the Iraqis? Especially considering the circumstances....

    And yes the US should try to discourage this type of treatment but we are far from perfect either. Ask any Marine vet from WW2 that fought the Japanese on some of these remote islands what happened with prisoners? Of course it was mostly in retaliation for what happend to our guys.... and of course we shouldnt condone this either but considering the circumstances its not hard see why these things can happen.

    As far as your foolish comment that I hold some sterotype about how Women are treated in the ME, it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia. If you dont know this you really need to get educated.
    Last edited by Iron Yank; 03-22-11 at 10:38 PM.

  2. #112
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    I get a kick out of these types of posts that constantly try to paint the US as a bad actor on the world stage while when you look at this in context, the Russians do this, the Chinese do this, the Iranians do this, the Egyptians do this,the Saudis ect ect ect. But yet you dont see articles like this on any of them, only on the US and almost always from the far left.

    So then tell me, if you were an Iraqi prison guard and you watched your fellow citizens, perhaps family, men women & children die by the thousands at the hands of scum like these, many by bombs which killed hundreds at a time, many rounded up, tied up & shot in the back of the head.

    Would you go easy on them if they were on your care? If your family, friends had been victims of these terrorists?

    I think you'd be a liar if you said yes , of course you live in a nice place where things like this are rare or none so I doubt you can comprehend the reality of it.

    Although I wouldnt condone this type of treatment I cant say I feel sorry for them, I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.
    The parts of the US that are bad are bad. The parts that are good are good. Period.

    I think that the path to nobility involves mostly self refinement. I am not from Russia. I am not from China. I am not from Iran. I am from the US. So I critisize that which I find apalling/malicious in regards to the US.

    I think that if someone brutalized me or my family I could not bring myself to attain vengence by drilling into the culprits arm with a power drill. You may think I am a liar but I have forgiven some pretty big things in my life. I wouldnt want a murderer killed. Only locked away and prevented from murdering. The only way I could kill someone is if it was for absolute self defense and I was scared out of my normal thinking. Even if someone where to bust into my house with a gun, I think I would choose (if I thought I had time) to attempt to try and slam my 12 guage slug into their upper arm/shoulder to disarm them and hope they live.

    What about innocents that get sent into this proccess and tortured? We cannot allow torture to happen under any circumstance because it would be very easy for people to gain false confessions once the torture mechanism is in place. Having a law that affects the whole militairy, allowing a mechanism for evil to go unchecked, is bad for the whole militairy (and others too). The whole US isnt a bad actor in the world only those in it that are bad. Which is why you should be carefull who you defend.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

  3. #113
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    What about when we let others do dirty things and make laws that prevent whistleblowers? For example: Frago 242. Does that reflect the US military at all? How about those in control of the investigations at least?

    Iraq war logs: Secret order that let US ignore abuse | World news | guardian.co.uk
    they are a soveriegn nation. what do you want us to do? reinvade?

  4. #114
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    I want there to not be a law that quashes a grunt from stopping violence. If we see a man torturing another man we stop him and make him familiar with justice. Maybe its time for justice not to be blind and open its ****in eyes. Ill stop with this topic though. Think I've had my say.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 03-23-11 at 03:17 AM.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

  5. #115
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Ah, I think I was trying to point out a difference between treatment of political prisoners during peacetime and treatment of lowlife thug mass murderers during a war and the press not making a distinction or reference. Not that I was excusing any of it. Just that the US has tolerated it from many countries and still did business with them so whats so horrifying that we looked the other way with the Iraqis? Especially considering the circumstances....

    And yes the US should try to discourage this type of treatment but we are far from perfect either. Ask any Marine vet from WW2 that fought the Japanese on some of these remote islands what happened with prisoners? Of course it was mostly in retaliation for what happend to our guys.... and of course we shouldnt condone this either but considering the circumstances its not hard see why these things can happen.

    As far as your foolish comment that I hold some sterotype about how Women are treated in the ME, it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia. If you dont know this you really need to get educated.
    You do hold the stereotype, you have demonstrated it twice. First you said: "I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.", then you say "it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia". That it's a "reality" to you is why you hold the stereotype.

    I'm sure you realise that not all countries in the ME have Sharia Law, nor are all persons in the ME Muslims. Nor are women automatically abused under sharia law though it's certainly a chauvinistic unjust system. So indeed you do have a stereotype of ME people, and as all stereotype, it's a generalisation that doesn't apply to all. And you should know this since you have argued that actions of some do not apply to all in the US Military.

    I don't know the rate of abuse in the ME, but I don't think it's much higher than India where widows are sometimes burnt with their dead husband. Or underdeveloped part of Asia where domestic violence is not socially ostracised still. I have travelled in ME, and though I'm a woman I was not accosted in anyway, nor were other female travellers. Some of the women I met wore Burkas and appeared to be happy. They didn't appear to be that different from the poor people of Asia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  6. #116
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    You do hold the stereotype, you have demonstrated it twice. First you said: "I can certainly understand how it may happen with the culture of the ME the way it is.", then you say "it is not a sterotype it is reality in countries that practice Sharia". That it's a "reality" to you is why you hold the stereotype.
    i've been in those countries. it's a stereotype in the same general sense that it's a stereotype that most Americans breathe air.

    I'm sure you realise that not all countries in the ME have Sharia Law, nor are all persons in the ME Muslims.
    perhaps you could aquaint me with the large pockets of (say) Jews currently living in (say) Egypt?

    Nor are women automatically abused under sharia law
    : no, just raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered.

    I don't know the rate of abuse in the ME, but I don't think it's much higher than India where widows are sometimes burnt with their dead husband.
    then you are (sadly) very wrong. wife-burning in India are more like honor-killings in the West.

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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i've been in those countries. it's a stereotype in the same general sense that it's a stereotype that most Americans breathe air.
    So ME people abuse each other every second of everyday?

    You were a soldier, have you ever visited that region as a civlian? There were very friendly helpful people to me.

    perhaps you could aquaint me with the large pockets of (say) Jews currently living in (say) Egypt?
    There's a large pocket of Christians in Egypt, they have thousand years of history. I visited the Hanging Church in Cairo which is more than a thousand years old. BTW, my guides were Christians too.

    There are still Jews in Iran. While the Nubians and Beduin professes the Muslims faith, they still have rituals that were pagan-like.

    : no, just raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered.
    Where in Sharia law does it say that female will be "raped, beaten, sold, and occasionally murdered" when born as a female?


    then you are (sadly) very wrong.
    And you know the rate of abuse in the ME VS India?

    wife-burning in India are more like honor-killings in the West.
    Do you refute that in India women are vulnerable to abuse? From what I know of India, the status with which women are held in the rural areas is not that much better than the ME. In Asia I know that domestic abuse is still accepted in certain areas. Men can do it and get away scot free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  8. #118
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    That is not demonizing the US military, it is her saying that if Afghans were to get violent against coalitions forces she wouldn't blame them.

    Reading comprehension my friend.
    IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?

  9. #119
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IOW, all coalition forces are responsible for the acts of a ****ed up few. How's that for reading comprehension, my friend?
    How about no? Nice try on twisting my words tho.

    Coalition forces will get the brunt and blow black of the actions of a few whether you like it or not.
    And honestly, I wouldn't blame any Afghan who is angry about the images acting out. Especially as it was done on civilians and pictured (who does that? :/)

    We are already seen as occupiers and invaders (which we are). We have done little in Afghanistan except set off more drugs trade which was lowered by Taliban. Killed god knows how many civilians through direct and indirect actions and have helped support and fund a Government which we know is corrupt.


  10. #120
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    Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadius View Post
    So, let me get this straight. You send people somewhere for the sole purpose of killing people,
    Yes, they are called the military. Trained to kill, destroy the enemy. It's not a new concept.

    then you're angry when they kill people outside of your preferred manner of killing,
    Yes. There are rules of engagement for civilized militaries. When those in the military go outside of that engagement they are usually punished under the criminal code.

    and when they kill the people you haven't designated okay to kill.
    Yes. IF civilians are "targeted", this is not looked upon kindly.

    This all comes from a society that says killing is wrong...
    Yes. We have relied on our military and security forces such as police to keep us safe from enemies foreign and domestic.

    With these questions and icon used, you seem confused. Have you been raised by Muslim terrorists or Muslim terrorist sympathizers because it seems you are not familiar in the least with how civil society operates. You see, it is not civil to leave your society unprotected from idiots that intend to do harm. Nor is it civil or legal for our military to off civilians. You see, we have standards. High standards.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 03-24-11 at 04:01 AM.
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