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Thread: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Libya has nothing to do with the WOT. Qadaffi was not a friend of Al Qaeda, as evidenced by his ridiculous claims that they are behind the rebellion. The U.S. interest in Libya is for humanitarian reasons, scoring points in the PR game and hopefully stabilizing the price of oil.
    You are wrong from the start because you think the WOT is about Al-Queda. Plenty of good analysts wrote of the larger picture and what the WOT was going to mean even as Bush coined the title. This was always going to be about the region that creates all the "Al-Quedas." Al-Queda didn't come from a single country. It didn't murder in a single country. We've faced them and seen them in Somalia, Sudan, Phillipines, Iraq, Jordan, etc. And as Qadaffi proved with his prior PANAM terrorist attack, it is not as simple as an old man in a cave called Bin Laden.

    If you want to be safe from religious terror on a massive organized scale, then the region is the disease. Al-Queda is merely a symptom. This is what your military has been doing all along. Do you think we are only dealing with this mess in Afghanistan? That democracy in Iraq wasn't an Al-Queda target? That Pakistan isn't harboring their tribal friendlies? That Bashir in Sudan is without association? That most of this radical mentoring hasn't come out of Egypt over the last 5 decades? Without Al-Queda, our people have died because of this region's mess that we somewhat helped facilitated during the Cold War. This is the WOT.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 12:31 PM.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why doesn't the Arab League step in to help? Are they completely useless?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Or are they anti Democracy?
    Yes. They are pro power. Democracy strips them of their power.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You are wrong from the start because you think the WOT is about Al-Queda. Plenty of good analysts wrote of the larger picture and what the WOT was going to mean even as Bush coined the title. This was always going to be about the region that creates all the "Al-Quedas." Al-Queda didn't come from a single country. It didn't murder in a single country. We've faced them and seen them in Somalia, Sudan, Phillipines, Iraq, Jordan, etc. And as Qadaffi proved with his prior PANAM terrorist attack, it is not as simple as an old man in a cave called Bin Laden.

    If you want to be safe from religious terror on a massive organized scale, then the region is the disease. Al-Queda is merely a symptom. This is what your military has been doing all along. Do you think we are only dealing with this mess in Afghanistan? That democracy in Iraq wasn't an Al-Queda target? That Pakistan isn't harboring their tribal friendlies? That Bashir in Sudan is without association? That most of this radical mentoring hasn't come out of Egypt over the last 5 decades? Without Al-Queda, our people have died because of this region's mess that we somewhat helped facilitated during the Cold War. This is the WOT.
    I believe you have a lot of that wrong. It is not the religion itself, as many, in fact a majority, of Muslims are not terrorist. Terrorism is born of things other than religion. however, just as nations have always used religious rethoric to inspire the masses, so do terrorist. There is nothing you can do with the military that will ever change the mindset of the terrorist. In fact, it is most likely that our actions have increased the number and not lessened them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I believe you have a lot of that wrong.

    Then you must also believe that the entire military has it wrong. I grow tired of this. We don't have a political axe to grind. No elections to concern ourselves with. No media to entertain. No parades on the horizon. There's just the mission that we have understood since this all began. People rising up against their own tyrants was always the hope. It's not my fault that your politicians and media have done you a disservice as they merely scramble about looking for sensationalism and voter points.

    When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Korean War, the military was focusing on Korea and the Cold War. When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Cuban Missile Crisis, the military was focusing on Cuba and the Cold War. When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Vietnam War, the military was focusing on Vietnam and the Cold War. What do you think has been happening since 2001? We have been focusing on Afghanistan, Iraq, the Phillipines, Somalia, Djibouti, ....and the WOT. It's the rest of you that have allowed yourselves to miss the grand effort.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is not the religion itself, as many, in fact a majority, of Muslims are not terrorist. Terrorism is born of things other than religion. however, just as nations have always used religious rethoric to inspire the masses, so do terrorist. There is nothing you can do with the military that will ever change the mindset of the terrorist.
    In fact, it is most likely that our actions have increased the number and not lessened them.
    I didn't state that religion is the disease. I stated the region is the disease. This means that their economic status, oppressions, inability to voice political oppositions healthily, and lack of education is all a part of this disease. All of this is themed throughout the Middle Eastern Arab world and this is why members of Al-Queda come from all over it. What is it that you state I have wrong? I will add in that the brittle concrete Middle Eastern Arab Islam does facilitate some of this madness.

    And we have not increased terrorism at all. This was always a false comfort for critics and safe minded intel theorists. You stated it yourself..."There is nothing you can do with the military that will ever change the mindset of the terrorist." All of this already existed. Shake up a can of soda for decades. Does merely popping the top create the inevitable explosion? All those mindless Sunni tribal robots that traveled from all over to kill the Shia in Iraq and to disrupt attempts to create democracy already existed. Notice how it subsided after enough of them were killed off and Iraqis began to succeed? Notice how wrecked Al-Queda has been throughout the world? Do you honestly think that radicals in Europe don't exist as they merely await an excuse to be what they want to be? With our enemies screaming that our culture infringing upon their's is an assault upon Islam, I don't see how you think that we don't have a ready made enemy already.

    The military's role is to kill the terrorist and to create opportunity in this region so that terrorists aren't so easily made. This has always been generational. We are not alone. Along with us are NGOs. In thirty years, people will reflect on the very obvious theme that has been created.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Then you must also believe that the entire military has it wrong. I grow tired of this. We don't have a political axe to grind. No elections to concern ourselves with. No media to entertain. No parades on the horizon. There's just the mission that we have understood since this all began. People rising up against their own tyrants was always the hope. It's not my fault that your politicians and media have done you a disservice as they merely scramble about looking for sensationalism and voter points.

    When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Korean War, the military was focusing on Korea and the Cold War. When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Cuban Missile Crisis, the military was focusing on Cuba and the Cold War. When American civilians were concerning themselves with criticizing the Vietnam War, the military was focusing on Vietnam and the Cold War. What do you think has been happening since 2001? We have been focusing on Afghanistan, Iraq, the Phillipines, Somalia, Djibouti, ....and the WOT. It's the rest of you that have allowed yourselves to miss the grand effort.
    You make a huge leap. It isn't about the military. The military takes orders from civilain leaders who are either wise and just and or foolish and reckless and everything inbetween.

    And it is about your reasoning. you, like anyone, can be wrong. And you can be without anything be said about the military.





    I didn't state that religion is the disease. I stated the region is the disease. This means that their economic status, oppressions, inability to voice political oppositions healthily, and lack of education is all a part of this disease. All of this is themed throughout the Middle Eastern Arab world and this is why members of Al-Queda come from all over it. What is it that you state I have wrong? I will add in that the brittle concrete Middle Eastern Arab Islam does facilitate some of this madness.

    And we have not increased terrorism at all. This was always a false comfort for critics and safe minded intel theorists. You stated it yourself..."There is nothing you can do with the military that will ever change the mindset of the terrorist." All of this already existed. Shake up a can of soda for decades. Does merely popping the top create the inevitable explosion? All those mindless Sunni tribal robots that traveled from all over to kill the Shia in Iraq and to disrupt attempts to create democracy already existed. Notice how it subsided after enough of them were killed off and Iraqis began to succeed? Notice how wrecked Al-Queda has been throughout the world? Do you honestly think that radicals in Europe don't exist as they merely await an excuse to be what they want to be? With our enemies screaming that our culture infringing upon their's is an assault upon Islam, I don't see how you think that we don't have a ready made enemy already.

    The military's role is to kill the terrorist and to create opportunity in this region so that terrorists aren't so easily made. This has always been generational. We are not alone. Along with us are NGOs. In thirty years, people will reflect on the very obvious theme that has been created.
    You're right, you said region. I think from our conversations you put religion in there, but if you say not, I'll accept that.

    That said, nothing you suggest as the problem is fixed by distruction and instability. Democracy, while desired, doesn't assure any of those things. It doesn't even assure we'll get a government that will be any less likely to see us as the great satan. Nor will any form of government do away with terrorist. It is not a government thing. No country is threatening us.

    The big picture is much more complicated and likely beyond simple hammerish solutions.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    You are wrong from the start because you think the WOT is about Al-Queda. Plenty of good analysts wrote of the larger picture and what the WOT was going to mean even as Bush coined the title. This was always going to be about the region that creates all the "Al-Quedas." Al-Queda didn't come from a single country. It didn't murder in a single country. We've faced them and seen them in Somalia, Sudan, Phillipines, Iraq, Jordan, etc. And as Qadaffi proved with his prior PANAM terrorist attack, it is not as simple as an old man in a cave called Bin Laden.
    Except once again, you put on the blinders and say our enemy= Al Qaeda. Qadaffi engaged in terrorism because the U.S. blocked his efforts to grab the gulf of Sidra, not religious reasons. In 2003 Qadaffi even paid some money and got the sanctions lifted. He harbored no ill will towards the west (except Switzerland for arresting his son) and was not a terrorist threat to the U.S. in the slightest. The intervention in Libya has nothing to do with terrorism as clearly stated by both political and military leadership.

    If you want to be safe from religious terror on a massive organized scale, then the region is the disease. Al-Queda is merely a symptom. This is what your military has been doing all along. Do you think we are only dealing with this mess in Afghanistan? That democracy in Iraq wasn't an Al-Queda target? That Pakistan isn't harboring their tribal friendlies? That Bashir in Sudan is without association? That most of this radical mentoring hasn't come out of Egypt over the last 5 decades? Without Al-Queda, our people have died because of this region's mess that we somewhat helped facilitated during the Cold War. This is the WOT.
    What does that have to do with Libya?

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You make a huge leap. It isn't about the military. The military takes orders from civilain leaders who are either wise and just and or foolish and reckless and everything inbetween.

    And it is about your reasoning. you, like anyone, can be wrong. And you can be without anything be said about the military.
    You ventured off into a different topic. Of course we obey our civilian masters and we oh so thank them for our meat. ........You missed the point completely. Much of what I state here is military instruction. The Pentagon is beyond Washington and has everything to do with guidance of decisions. Rumsfeld was an exception. Our cultural training goes beyond the simple focus of civilians who only see Afganistan...then Iraq...and then Libya. While you focus on how we got in or should we do this or that, we see it all as one giant effort between Cairo and Islamabad (we may as well throw Tripoli in there now). We don't see any of this as seperate because we are immersed within this culture. While Marines and soldiers are flip flopping around from Afghanistan, Iraq, <and other places>, and our civilian diplomats and CENTCOM are addresing social issues within Saudi, Syria, Jordan, Sudan, Egypt, etc. we have been seeing quite clearly the regional war we are in. Eventually we will have gone to war or had our hands into every single Arab nation change, making this much bigger than the symptom of Al-Queda. My reasoning is sound and it goes far beyond what lines on a map tell you. Think Cold War and you will begin to see how much wider Afghanistan and Iraq was always going to be. Our enemy demanded our attention. Well, now they have it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That said, nothing you suggest as the problem is fixed by distruction and instability.
    "Stability" would have these people still under their dictators and creating the environment that breeds religious terror. Temporary instability is exactly what they need. "Stability" is what made our oh so wise politicians preserve Saddam Hussein for 12 years. It's what preserved Mubarak and the House of Saud for decades. Democracy is exactly what they need and want. Without it, they will continue to create and breed religious terrorism on a civilizational scale.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    Democracy, while desired, doesn't assure any of those things.
    Nothing assures anything so that's not an argument. However, ony democracy is fluid enough to deal with all the problems within the MENA region that create the kind of desperation terrorism needs for fuel. Democracy has bred opportunity and politicial change within the West for a very long time. terrorismis not commonplace in our world. Is it because we are Chrisitan and they are Muslims? You would argue not, yet you dismiss the power of democracy too? I would state that democracy is as assured as you can get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It doesn't even assure we'll get a government that will be any less likely to see us as the great satan. Nor will any form of government do away with terrorist. It is not a government thing. No country is threatening us.
    It didn't take a country to create Al-Queda and the countless other organizations that theme around tribal murder and mayhem. What it took was desparate souls from throughout who have no politicial options within their own oppressing governments. It took a failed region and a failed civilization. Matters were exponentially getting worse until 9/11 finally woke the fools up. And what if they elect a radical along their path? Given that France elected an Emporer and Germany a dictator along their paths, maybe we can give Arabs more than a few years to get it right. Or should we expect perfection after threehundrd years of European colonialismand Cold War prescription? I guarantee they do a far better job than Emporer Napoleon and Adolph Hitler.

    And the goal was never to rid the earth of terrorism. It was always to get it to a more manageable position in this religious region where our current enemies are bred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The big picture is much more complicated and likely beyond simple hammerish solutions.
    And you've thought so very hard on this have you? Would like me to post what has been circling the military corners for years? I guarantee you that there is far more going on with this region than CNN or FOX or some half ass President has told you.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 07:38 PM.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You ventured off into a different topic. Of course we obey our civilian masters and we oh so thank them for our meat. ........You missed the point completely. Much of what I state here is military instruction. The Pentagon is beyond Washington and has everything to do with guidance of decisions. Rumsfeld was an exception. Our cultural training goes beyond the simple focus of civilians who only see Afganistan...then Iraq...and then Libya. While you focus on how we got in or should we do this or that, we see it all as one giant effort between Cairo and Islamabad (we may as well throw Tripoli in there now). We don't see any of this as seperate because we are immersed within this culture. While Marines and soldiers are flip flopping around from Afghanistan, Iraq, <and other places>, and our civilian diplomats and CENTCOM are addresing social issues within Saudi, Syria, Jordan, Sudan, Egypt, etc. we have been seeing quite clearly the regional war we are in. Eventually we will have gone to war or had our hands into every single Arab nation change, making this much bigger than the symptom of Al-Queda. My reasoning is sound and it goes far beyond what lines on a map tell you. Think Cold War and you will begin to see how much wider Afghanistan and Iraq was always going to be. Our enemy demanded our attention. Well, now they have it.
    Actually, it was you who ventured off, and I start off noting that.

    And, no, you're dealing more with people who were not your enemy than with our enemy. They are a realitively small number. Afghanistan wasn't our enemy. Neither was Iraq really. We have tensions with Iran, but enemy would be the wrong word. Same with much of the ME.

    Our enemy is small in number and unable to defeat us. Our enemy needs us to be reckless in order to do any lasting harm. Sure, they can hurt us, and they still can. Nothing about fighting Jane makes Tarzan unable to hit you. So, mostly our efforts (concerning the big picture) have been ineffective, and this speaks to leadership and not the military.

    "Stability" would have these people still under their dictators and creating the environment that breeds religious terror. Temporary instability is exactly what they need. "Stability" is what made our oh so wise politicians preserve Saddam Hussein for 12 years. It's what preserved Mubarak and the House of Saud for decades. Democracy is exactly what they need and want. Without it, they will continue to create and breed religious terrorism on a civilizational scale.
    Maybe, maybe not. Egypt freed themselves. In Lybia, they stood up first. It is arrogance to think we're the gift givers of freedom. freedom is earned. People free themselves. It is one thing to help someone who has stood up. It's another to to invade, univited, and decide for someone else.

    And let's remember, in the big picture, freedom doesn't mean our problem is solved.




    Nothing assures anything so that's not an argument. However, ony democracy is fluid enough to deal with all the problems within the MENA region that create the kind of desperation terrorism needs for fuel.
    That's actually incorrect. A democracy can elect a terrorist. Any doubt that a terrorist won't leave later on? The big picture means not making mindless platitudes, but seeking realistic aassessment. What needs to be done starts from the bottom and not the top. The people have to buy an argument, and not be told they were freed from the top.



    It didn't take a country to create Al-Queda and the countless other organizations that theme around tribal murder and mayhem. What it took was desparate souls from throughout who have no politicial options within their own oppressing governments. It took a failed region and a failed civilization. Matters were exponentially getting worse until 9/11 finally woke the fools up. And what if they elect a radical along their path? Given that France elected an Emporer and Germany a dictator along their paths, maybe we can give Arabs more than a few years to get it right. Or should we expect perfection after threehundrd years of European colonialismand Cold War prescription? I guarantee they do a far better job than Emporer Napoleon and Adolph Hitler.
    You do realize some of the terrorist have no problem with dictators, right? It's hard to argue we hate dictators and we want a dictatorship.

    But beyond that, you miss much of the complaint. Many over there simply don't want us interfering in their business. They see freedom as more than a local election, but freedom to not have America dictating their future. Much of what some want concerning this will not happen, but we'd be better served by making a stronger case and using the hammer a little less.


    And the goal was never to rid the earth of terrorism. It was always to get it to a more manageable position in this religious region where our current enemies are bred.
    Then we have clearly failed. We made the extremist in iran stronger. We made iran stronger on the whole. We likely have more terrorist being bred than we did before we invaded Iraq. Our own CIA estimates have said as much.

    And you've thought so very hard on this have you? Would like me to post what has been circling the military corners for years? I guarantee you that there is far more going on with this region than CNN or FOX or some half ass President has told you.
    A mypoic view, no matter from which angle it comes from, is still myopic.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    I care very little what the Arab league says or thinks. Many of those countries are run by dictators who may face (or have faced) political situations and uprisings like in Libya.
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    Re: Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

    the arab league, as well, is not reliable

    the league will not be stuck with the NATION BUILDING that must naturally ensue if gadaffi goes

    we will

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