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U.S. Tomahawk Cruise Missiles Hit Targets in Libya

I wasn't clear but was implying pre WWII.

And it's not clear to me that they are even being helped and, even if they are, there is quite probably other peoples of the world who could use our help even more.

I was all for Iraq and would defend it today, but I'm not all that sure about Libya,

OK Grant. That does change my impression quite a bit. I would agree to some extent about Ger and Jap.

There are good reasons to intervene in some nations affairs and not in others. I guess those standards change somewhat with each administration.

For me two of the major standards for intervention would be are the people willing to fight themselves and what will it look like when the dust settles.

Hopefully in Egypt, Tunisia, and Liyba the outcome will be free and peaceful nations who reject jihadis.
 
Review the dictators the US has supported.




Why? thats not what you said:


I don't support organizations that turn a blind eye to the war crimes of its peace keepers.



You then asked why I don't "support America", meaning, directly in response to my post that you think US peacekeepers, IE our troops and veterans are war criminals....


So I ask you again, are you calling us war criminals?
 
OK Grant. That does change my impression quite a bit. I would agree to some extent about Ger and Jap.

There are good reasons to intervene in some nations affairs and not in others. I guess those standards change somewhat with each administration.

For me two of the major standards for intervention would be are the people willing to fight themselves and what will it look like when the dust settles.

Hopefully in Egypt, Tunisia, and Liyba the outcome will be free and peaceful nations who reject jihadis.

And this thing with Libya appears to be based on Hope. I think we have to have far more understanding of the situation before we commit ourselves to such an enterprise and must rely on hope that things turn out well.

I don't think we undersand what those 'rebels' want or who is behind them.

It seems to me that we are hoping they are similar to the founders of the American Revolution but that lends a romantic edge that would seem unrealistic, judging from what we've learned from the Middle East and from many of their attitudes toward the west.

I feel it's a Fools Rush In situation.
 
And this thing with Libya appears to be based on Hope. I think we have to have far more understanding of the situation before we commit ourselves to such an enterprise and must rely on hope that things turn out well.

I don't think we undersand what those 'rebels' want or who is behind them.

It seems to me that we are hoping they are similar to the founders of the American Revolution but that lends a romantic edge that would seem unrealistic, judging from what we've learned from the Middle East and from many of their attitudes toward the west.

I feel it's a Fools Rush In situation.

Who the rebels are is definately important but I certainly never looked at them like I do Washington and Jefferson.

If we had rushed in quicker this may have been over already.
 
Who the rebels are is definately important but I certainly never looked at them like I do Washington and Jefferson.

If we had rushed in quicker this may have been over already.

Islamic nations in the ME and North Africa at least are tribal at heart. They want someone strong at the top who is going to make things run smoothly. The revolutions happen when the guy at the top ****s up and the people at the bottom have problems with their basic needs. Keep the food, energy and housing prices reasonable and they'll generally put up with other ****. Keep them secure. Only a minority really wants a democracy, a true democracy. The rest want someone strong at the top who will make sure those needs get met.

Ah, don't confuse Central and South America with the ME. Western nations have totally different mindsets and history. Democratic republics can work in western nations, even if they are "banana republics".
 
Islamic nations in the ME and North Africa at least are tribal at heart. They want someone strong at the top who is going to make things run smoothly. The revolutions happen when the guy at the top ****s up and the people at the bottom have problems with their basic needs. Keep the food, energy and housing prices reasonable and they'll generally put up with other ****. Keep them secure. Only a minority really wants a democracy, a true democracy. The rest want someone strong at the top who will make sure those needs get met.

If that's what they choose and it's free and peaceful it's a win. It's their choice. Let's hope they choose better than the Palestinians.

Ah, don't confuse Central and South America with the ME. Western nations have totally different mindsets and history. Democratic republics can work in western nations, even if they are "banana republics".

will do.
 
USA supported dictators:

"Abacha, General Sani - Nigeria
Amin, Idi - Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo - Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio - Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal - Brunei
Botha, P.W. - South Africa
Branco, General Humberto - Brazil
Cedras, Raoul - Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio - Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek - Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo - Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo - El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn - Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel - Liberia
Duvalier, Francois - Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude - Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King - Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco - Spain
Hitler, Adolf - Germany
Hassan II - Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand - Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano - El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko - Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel - Panama
Ozal, Turgut - Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza - Iran
Papadopoulos, George - Greece
Park Chung Hee - South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto - Chile
Pol Pot - Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni - Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Salassie, Halie - Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira - Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. - Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. - Nicaragua
Smith, Ian - Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo - Paraguay
Suharto, General - Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas - Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael - Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed - Pakistan"
USA Supported Dictators

hell, cat

that's only 42
its not like we do it a lot
sarcasmsmiley-1.jpg
 
If that's what they choose and it's free and peaceful it's a win. It's their choice. Let's hope they choose better than the Palestinians.

Lets hope...lord

You gotta go back to history. Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. You may decry the history as short, but that's all we've got. And it has been remarkably consistent across the Middle East, southwest Asia and North Africa. We may not have hundreds of years of history in one nation, but we do amongst the dozen or more countries in that region. So again I say that your hope for a good result out of the chaos in Libya is a forlorn hope. And if you think Libya would be in better shape today with some other tribal sect in charge, then you are speculating without a shred of evidence to support it. If Omar hadn't assumed, and kept power, some other Colonel or General would have. And we'd have made deals with him or he'd have remained a Soviet client and followed their agenda
 
Why? thats not what you said:


You then asked why I don't "support America", meaning, directly in response to my post that you think US peacekeepers, IE our troops and veterans are war criminals....


So I ask you again, are you calling us war criminals?


I said nothing about the troops being war crimminals. My point, as I stated, was that the US has been supporting dictators all through history that are inhumane crimminals.

Then another poster wanted a list of the dictators the US has supported,

Actually that's not the way it works, Catawba.

When you make claims it's up to you to support those claims.

Catawba - Review the dictators the US has supported.

which I provided (a list of 42).
 
The United States supported Franco? That's a new one on me.

I like how you threw Batista in there. He was dipposed by Castro. That was a huge improvement for the Cubans.

Pol Pot? The United States supported Pol Pot? Where the hell did you come up with this crazy ass list?? Did you even bother to read it, before you posted it? Or, did you dig it up on some kook fringe Libbo website and just run with it?
 
Pol Pot? The United States supported Pol Pot? Where the hell did you come up with this crazy ass list?? Did you even bother to read it, before you posted it? Or, did you dig it up on some kook fringe Libbo website and just run with it?

Err... we did... We gave over $5 million in direct aid to the KPNLF in the 1980's.
 
The United States supported Franco? That's a new one on me.

I like how you threw Batista in there. He was dipposed by Castro. That was a huge improvement for the Cubans.

Pol Pot? The United States supported Pol Pot? Where the hell did you come up with this crazy ass list?? Did you even bother to read it, before you posted it? Or, did you dig it up on some kook fringe Libbo website and just run with it?

"A number of prominent and wealthy American businessmen helped to support fascist regimes in Europe from the 1920s through the 1940s. These people helped to support Francisco Franco during the Spanish Civil War of 1936, as well as Benito Mussolini, and Adolph Hitler.

Some of the primary and more famous Americans and companies that were involved with the fascist regimes of Europe are: William Randolph Hearst, Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father), Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon (head of Alcoa, banker, and Secretary of Treasury), DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, ITT, Allen Dulles (later head of the CIA), Prescott Bush, National City Bank, and General Electric."
American supporters of the European Fascists

"As the United States became increasingly concerned with the Soviet threat following the fall of Czechoslovakia, the Berlin blockade in 1948, and the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950, United States policy makers also began to recognize the strategic importance of the Iberian Peninsula; furthermore, they realized that ostracism had failed and that the Franco regime was stronger than ever. The United States government took steps to normalize its political and economic relations with Spain in the years 1948-50. In September 1950, President Truman signed a bill that appropriated US$62.5 million for aid to Spain. In the same year, the United States supported a UN resolution lifting the boycott on Franco's regime and resumed full diplomatic relations with Spain in 1951."

"The Pact of Madrid, signed shortly after the Concordat, further symbolized the Spanish regime's rehabilitation. It also marked the end of Spanish neutrality. The Pact consisted of three separate, but interdependent, agreements between Spain and the United States. It provided for mutual defense, for military aid to Spain, and for the construction of bases there. The United States was to use these bases for a renewable ten-year period, but the bases remained under Spanish sovereignty. Although the pact did not constitute a full-fledged military alliance, it did commit the United States to support Spain's defense efforts; furthermore, it provided Spain with much-needed economic assistance. During the first ten years of the Pact of Madrid, the United States sent approximately US$1.5 billion in all kinds of aid to Spain. "
Spain - Foreign Policy under Franco

"Batista joined the army in 1921 and held the rank of sergeant when he joined in a military coup against the liberal President Machado – known as the ‘Revolt of the Sergeants’ – in September 1933. His credibility was sealed when the US ambassador to Cuba, Benjamin Welles, told Batista that he was the only man in Cuba who held any form of “personal authority”. Welles also made it clear to Batista that America had no intention of interfering in internal Cuban affairs and that what he did within the island was entirely a concern of the Cuban people. To Batista this appeared to be a green light to rule as he wished to. On January 19th 1934, America recognised the new government of Cuba."

"He continued to build up his support with the USA and in 1944 he introduced war taxes to help America pay for her war effort."
Fulgencio Batista
 
"A number of prominent and wealthy American businessmen helped to support fascist regimes in Europe from the 1920s through the 1940s. These people helped to support Francisco Franco during the Spanish Civil War of 1936, as well as Benito Mussolini, and Adolph Hitler.

Some of the primary and more famous Americans and companies that were involved with the fascist regimes of Europe are: William Randolph Hearst, Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father), Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon (head of Alcoa, banker, and Secretary of Treasury), DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, ITT, Allen Dulles (later head of the CIA), Prescott Bush, National City Bank, and General Electric."
American supporters of the European Fascists

"As the United States became increasingly concerned with the Soviet threat following the fall of Czechoslovakia, the Berlin blockade in 1948, and the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950, United States policy makers also began to recognize the strategic importance of the Iberian Peninsula; furthermore, they realized that ostracism had failed and that the Franco regime was stronger than ever. The United States government took steps to normalize its political and economic relations with Spain in the years 1948-50. In September 1950, President Truman signed a bill that appropriated US$62.5 million for aid to Spain. In the same year, the United States supported a UN resolution lifting the boycott on Franco's regime and resumed full diplomatic relations with Spain in 1951."

"The Pact of Madrid, signed shortly after the Concordat, further symbolized the Spanish regime's rehabilitation. It also marked the end of Spanish neutrality. The Pact consisted of three separate, but interdependent, agreements between Spain and the United States. It provided for mutual defense, for military aid to Spain, and for the construction of bases there. The United States was to use these bases for a renewable ten-year period, but the bases remained under Spanish sovereignty. Although the pact did not constitute a full-fledged military alliance, it did commit the United States to support Spain's defense efforts; furthermore, it provided Spain with much-needed economic assistance. During the first ten years of the Pact of Madrid, the United States sent approximately US$1.5 billion in all kinds of aid to Spain. "
Spain - Foreign Policy under Franco

"Batista joined the army in 1921 and held the rank of sergeant when he joined in a military coup against the liberal President Machado – known as the ‘Revolt of the Sergeants’ – in September 1933. His credibility was sealed when the US ambassador to Cuba, Benjamin Welles, told Batista that he was the only man in Cuba who held any form of “personal authority”. Welles also made it clear to Batista that America had no intention of interfering in internal Cuban affairs and that what he did within the island was entirely a concern of the Cuban people. To Batista this appeared to be a green light to rule as he wished to. On January 19th 1934, America recognised the new government of Cuba."

"He continued to build up his support with the USA and in 1944 he introduced war taxes to help America pay for her war effort."
Fulgencio Batista


rationalrevolution.net - Making sense of history, economics, politics, philosophy, and war is communist, propaganda drivel.


j-mac
 
then refute it
show us evidence of what is found factually incorrect

Any reasonable person with just a slight understanding of international politics should be able to understand this list immediately, Catawba, without needing it explained.
 
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