Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

Bernard von NotHaus was convicted Friday at the conclusion of an eight-day trial in U.S. District Court in Statesville. The jury deliberated less than two hours, according to the Department of Justice.

Charges remain pending against William Kevin Innes, an Asheville man who authorities said recruited merchants in Western North Carolina willing to accept the “barter” currency, according to court records. Innes was indicted along with von NotHaus in 2009.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.

Kandahar · Mar 19, 2011

Although the rhetoric is a bit over the top, there are very good reasons for the government to tightly regulate currency and monopolize our nation's monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Chairman and the Secretary of the Treasury are appointed by the President, who is elected by the people. Who elected THIS bozo? It could end very very badly if private currencies became widely used.

MaggieD · Mar 19, 2011

Demon of Light said:
Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.

Ithaca, NY has Time Dollars. San Francisco has an alternative currency. Heck, Frequent Flyer Miles are a form of alternate currency. The Liberty Dollar, it seems, was the most successful. But FFMs must certainly top even that. The General Assembly in Tennessee has formed a committee to investigate alternative currencies. Seems to be a growing anamoly. Doesn't speak too well for greenbacks.

Jetboogieman · Mar 19, 2011

Speaking of alternate currencies

:mrgreen:

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

Kandahar said:
Although the rhetoric is a bit over the top, there are very good reasons for the government to tightly regulate currency and monopolize our nation's monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Chairman and the Secretary of the Treasury are appointed by the President, who is elected by the people. Who elected THIS bozo? It could end very very badly if private currencies became widely used.

You need to do some research into the Federal Reserve system. By law members of the Board of Governors are required to be representative of corporate interests across the country. The various directors of the regional reserve banks that appoint five people to the Open Market Committee, with the head of the New York Fed being vice-chairman of the body, are owned and appointed mostly by member banks, the national banks (JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, etc.) being automatic members of the system. Decisions of that body are by consensus, basically meaning everyone has to agree i.e. the people appointed by the banking corporations have to approve all measures. The Federal Reserve System is nothing more than a government-mandated banking cartel.

I would prefer individuals issuing their own currencies to this perverse state-monopoly capitalism.

Marshabar · Mar 19, 2011

Well, jail's not so bad. At least they didn't assassinate him.

Kandahar · Mar 19, 2011

Demon of Light said:
I would prefer individuals issuing their own currencies to this perverse state-monopoly capitalism.

Individuals issuing their own currencies is a recipe for disaster. It means that there would be little to no stability in our economy, and little ability for the government to tame bubbles or mitigate recessions. The economic problems in Greece are a good example of what happens when a nation can't control its own monetary policy. Greece badly needs to devalue its currency, but it doesn't have one, so it will be stuck in a recession for years.

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

Kandahar said:
Individuals issuing their own currencies is a recipe for disaster. It means that there would be little to no stability in our economy, and little ability for the government to tame bubbles or mitigate recessions. The economic problems in Greece are a good example of what happens when a nation can't control its own monetary policy. Greece badly needs to devalue its currency, but it doesn't have one, so it will be stuck in a recession for years.

Since when has our government tried to "tame bubbles" in our economy? Also, what happened in Greece is only a good example of what happens when you don't have strict fiscal discipline.

Kandahar · Mar 19, 2011

Demon of Light said:
Since when has our government tried to "tame bubbles" in our economy?

Governments can tame bubbles by raising interest rates. Higher interest rates encourage saving and discourage spending/investment. Similarly, when the government wants the economy to grow faster it can cut interest rates.

Demon of Light said:
Also, what happened in Greece is only a good example of what happens when you don't have strict fiscal discipline.

I'm referring more to what happened in Greece AFTER the financial crisis struck. Greece was forced into harsh austerity measures that will prolong the recession, because it does not have control over its own monetary policy. If Greece still had the drachma it could have devalued. This is NOT an example that the United States (or anyone else) needs to copy. We're far better off having the government firmly in control of monetary policy.

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

Kandahar said:
Governments can tame bubbles by raising interest rates. Higher interest rates encourage saving and discourage spending/investment. Similarly, when the government wants the economy to grow faster it can cut interest rates.

They can do it, but that is not the same as actually doing it.

I'm referring more to what happened in Greece AFTER the financial crisis struck. Greece was forced into harsh austerity measures that will prolong the recession, because it does not have control over its own monetary policy. If Greece still had the drachma it could have devalued. This is NOT an example that the United States (or anyone else) needs to copy. We're far better off having the government firmly in control of monetary policy.

If Greece had its own currency the country would have collapsed from the financial crisis already rather than just being bogged down in a vicious deflationary cycle.

MaggieD · Mar 19, 2011

Demon of Light said:
You need to do some research into the Federal Reserve system. By law members of the Board of Governors are required to be representative of corporate interests across the country. The various directors of the regional reserve banks that appoint five people to the Open Market Committee, with the head of the New York Fed being vice-chairman of the body, are owned and appointed mostly by member banks, the national banks (JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, etc.) being automatic members of the system. Decisions of that body are by consensus, basically meaning everyone has to agree i.e. the people appointed by the banking corporations have to approve all measures. The Federal Reserve System is nothing more than a government-mandated banking cartel.

I would prefer individuals issuing their own currencies to this perverse state-monopoly capitalism.

That's ridiculous. Let's pay for everything in Frequent Flyer Miles.

We'd all better hope that the US Dollar never loses it's reserve currency status. If that should ever happen, well, let's just say stock up on MRE's.

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

MaggieD said:
That's ridiculous. Let's pay for everything in Frequent Flyer Miles.

We'd all better hope that the US Dollar never loses it's reserve currency status. If that should ever happen, well, let's just say stock up on MRE's.

A piece of paper does not tie our society together. So long as there is some means of exchange agreed upon within a society a currency's life or death will have no impact. Unfortunately the government is neither willing to consider a change of currency or a withdrawal of the policies causing the problems with our current one.

Let there be no mistake, the U.S. dollar will not be the reserve currency of the world forever. A currency's place in the world is determined by who dominates international trade. That means who buys the most resources and sells the most products. It is only a matter of years before China takes up that role and at that point governments will have to start stocking up on renminbi ending our currency's dominant role.

When that happens, if our government has done nothing to improve the U.S. dollar at that time it would be for the best for there to be groups with an already prepared alternative medium of exchange.

Kandahar · Mar 19, 2011

Demon of Light said:
A piece of paper does not tie our society together. So long as there is some means of exchange agreed upon within a society a currency's life or death will have no impact.

That is not at all true. A nation's monetary policy is extremely important in determining the success or failure of a national economy...in fact, it's the MOST important variable. Countries with irresponsible monetary policies inevitably fail. Try telling a Zimbabwean that the death of the Zim Dollar has had no impact.

Demon of Light said:
Unfortunately the government is neither willing to consider a change of currency or a withdrawal of the policies causing the problems with our current one.

What would those problems be? And why do you believe some random guy with his own currency is better able to solve them than the government?

Demon of Light · Mar 19, 2011

Kandahar said:
That is not at all true. A nation's monetary policy is extremely important in determining the success or failure of a national economy...in fact, it's the MOST important variable. Countries with irresponsible monetary policies inevitably fail. Try telling a Zimbabwean that the death of the Zim Dollar has had no impact.

Do you know how they turned around their hyperinflationary issue? They dropped their currency altogether and started allowing the use of foreign currencies. Zimbabwe's government beforehand was simply unwilling to make such a move. It was imperiled due to the actions of its government and its refusal to allow competing currencies to replace theirs.

What would those problems be? And why do you believe some random guy with his own currency is better able to solve them than the government?

It's not just one guy, but that is beside the point. The alternative currency in this case is not impacted by the kind of largesse and debt as our government currency. Our official currency has been weakened because of monetary policies from the Federal Reserve, a government-mandated banking cartel in service of corporations instead of popular interests, and decades of deficit spending.

danarhea · Mar 19, 2011

Kandahar said:
Although the rhetoric is a bit over the top, there are very good reasons for the government to tightly regulate currency and monopolize our nation's monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Chairman and the Secretary of the Treasury are appointed by the President, who is elected by the people. Who elected THIS bozo? It could end very very badly if private currencies became widely used.

Yea, they are regulating money so tightly that soon we will be able to use it as kindling. LOL.

Demon of Light · Mar 20, 2011

danarhea said:
Yea, they are regulating money so tightly that soon we will be able to use it as kindling. LOL.

It did help the Germans keep warm.

Kandahar · Mar 20, 2011

Demon of Light said:
Do you know how they turned around their hyperinflationary issue? They dropped their currency altogether and started allowing the use of foreign currencies. Zimbabwe's government beforehand was simply unwilling to make such a move. It was imperiled due to the actions of its government and its refusal to allow competing currencies to replace theirs.

Yes, that's my point. You claimed that "a currency's life or death will have no impact" as long as people continue to use SOME kind of currency. This is completely belied by many historical counterexamples, of which the death of the Zim Dollar is only the most recent.

Demon of Light said:
It's not just one guy, but that is beside the point. The alternative currency in this case is not impacted by the kind of largesse and debt as our government currency. Our official currency has been weakened because of monetary policies from the Federal Reserve, a government-mandated banking cartel in service of corporations instead of popular interests, and decades of deficit spending.

I find it ironic that you criticize the Federal Reserve for catering to corporate interests, while supporting a private currency whose SOLE PURPOSE is to cater to corporate interests. At least the government is in charge of who runs the Federal Reserve, unlike who runs the liberty dollar central bank (or whatever its equivalent is), and they theoretically have the public interest in mind.

As for being impacted by the debt...OK, suppose that these private currencies became commonplace. What's stopping them from running debt of their own and paying for it by printing more of their currency? You act like the temporal problems of the federal government can be solved by abandonment of our own monetary policy, but it isn't that simple, because the private sector is hardly immune to the same type of problems. And even if they were, they are not motivated by protecting the public interest.

The Federal Reserve can raise interest rates when they want to fight inflation, or lower interest rates when they want to fight unemployment. A private currency operator won't give a damn about unemployment, and will only care about inflation inasmuch as it affects their own bottom line.

Kandahar · Mar 20, 2011

danarhea said:
Yea, they are regulating money so tightly that soon we will be able to use it as kindling. LOL.

"Tightly regulating currency" =/= "Tightly contracting the money supply."

Jerry · Mar 20, 2011

Demon of Light said:
Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.

The Constitution is quite clear, only Congress has the authority to coin money. No one else. We can't go back to having competing currencies.

TOJ · Mar 20, 2011

MaggieD said:
That's ridiculous. Let's pay for everything in Frequent Flyer Miles.

We'd all better hope that the US Dollar never loses it's reserve currency status. If that should ever happen, well, let's just say stock up on MRE's.

Too late.

Forbes said:
Demand for US assets, especially Treasuries, has been waning since the beginning of 2011, with central banks around the world increasing reserve accumulation while dumping the greenback. More signs that the dollar is dead as the world’s only reserve currency?

Link to story

MaggieD · Mar 20, 2011

TOJ said:
Too late.

In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.

Yikes! .......

Secret Meeting Discussing Dumping US Dollar As Oil Currency | Culture of Life News

Aunt Spiker · Mar 20, 2011

Demon of Light said:
Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.

Coins for game-machines are not being presented as 'real money' - it's a token piece which was purchased for use in a machine all for the financial security of the business (so there's a reduction in machine-theft and vandalism as they don't have real coins in the games). This is not 'real tender' and it is 'legal' to use in a game-machine but it is *not* legal to use elsewhere - you can't use them to buy a soda at a store down the street.

But making your own money - and then using that money in stores and businesses in town is NOT legal.

ONLY Congress has the authority to make real money to use in exchange for goods or payment of services = legal tender. So, yes, it is a REAL legitimate issue - it is not legal tender.

Congress has exclusive power to coin money in the U.S. and to regulate its value, according to the Treasury Department.

Do you really think I should be able to print off money at my home computer and go to my local grocery store and buy groceries with it when everyone else has to actually earn their money and become subject to inflation, etc?

Why should someone who decides to make their own money be permitted to do exactly that?

MaggieD · Mar 20, 2011

Aunt Spiker said:
Do you really think I should be able to print off money at my home computer and go to my local grocery store and buy groceries with it when everyone else has to actually earn their money and become subject to inflation, etc?Why should someone who decides to make their own money be permitted to do exactly that?

I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?

Aunt Spiker · Mar 20, 2011

MaggieD said:
I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?

But this issue in question isn't bartering. Bartering is one service or quantity for an agreed on other - it's not regulated or institutionalized - but people do it all the time. It is legal and nothing wrong with it - not even gift certificates, coupons and write-offs are an actual problem.

Now - like they did in New York - a business can begin to accept foreign currency as legal currency for goods, sure, without any problems.

Kandahar · Mar 20, 2011

MaggieD said:
I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?

Well, one good reason is the one that you just mentioned: Because it's a way to evade taxes. Other good reasons include the societal interest in having a coordinated monetary policy, the inherent instability in private currencies (and therefore the economy as a whole if the private currencies are widely used), the lack of public accountability in private currencies, and the widespread potential for fraud in private currencies.

Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

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