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Thread: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well I mean it's not really counterfeiting is it? It wasn't made to be taken for US legal tender, it was made to be a metal backed currency that people could use if they wanted. In theory, I have no problem with it. I think a competing, metal backed currency isn't the worst thing in the world. But as it stands, you can't do it and the government will come after you. They do have the right to print and regulate the value of our currency, and that's well within their proper power to do. I would just also legalize 1 form of metal backed currency to use at people's discretion. You wouldn't be forced to take it, like you are US legal tender. But if people choose to use it and you want to, then I think it's ok.
    Legally you certainly can do it. Now, certainly the government will come after you for it, especially if it begins seeing any notable acceptance, but that does not mean it is illegal. The only way it is illegal is if you intend for it be used as legal tender and you do not have authorization to have it used as such. In this case you have a currency that was clearly stated to be private and voluntary and not usable as legal tender so it was a legal alternative currency. Of course, things like this are a thorn in the side of the State and are not often tolerated.

    Interestingly the raid on their offices occurred around the same time that Ron Paul's campaign was making serious financial and popular gains.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Anyone who studies U.S. history can tell you that juries are perfectly capable of wrongly finding someone guilty. In this case it seems the prosecutor went out of his way to prejudice the jury against the defendant.



    It's not illegal to put USA on something you produce.



    It is not a fake currency, just not legal tender and he was not trying to pass it off as legal tender thus he was well within rights.



    "Not really relevant"? It is of the utmost relevance when you are arguing someone's guilty of trying to pass off their alternative currency as legal tender. These coins not only differed, they differed in such a way that anyone could tell it was not government-issued currency. Consider the picture you put up for a moment. Do you think someone seeing "For the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and the Income Tax" is going to presume that coin is government-issued currency?



    Except those government-issued coins never had the phrase "Liberty Dollars" on them like this.

    Yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that "the jury found him guilty" they may be wrong about finding him guilty but they found him guilty. The question is: do we trust the jury? For a lot of us, we don't just trust the jury we agree with their decision after finding our own facts. You are the one who doesn't, you appear to be in the minority, your arguement is base on your belief of the defendent's intention which is contradicted by his actions, and on top of that you claim biases and prejudice for the jury which you can't proof. You are engaging is a circular arguement in which your belief takes precedent over reality - if reality contradicts your belief then reality is either bias or wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Legally you certainly can do it. Now, certainly the government will come after you for it, especially if it begins seeing any notable acceptance, but that does not mean it is illegal. The only way it is illegal is if you intend for it be used as legal tender and you do not have authorization to have it used as such. In this case you have a currency that was clearly stated to be private and voluntary and not usable as legal tender so it was a legal alternative currency. Of course, things like this are a thorn in the side of the State and are not often tolerated.

    Interestingly the raid on their offices occurred around the same time that Ron Paul's campaign was making serious financial and popular gains.
    Well how can he be found guilty? I agree that it's not counterfeiting because it was not meant to be taken as legal tender. However, it seems almost a certainty that there's an executive order out there which bars competing currency like this. It sounds like something the government would do.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that "the jury found him guilty" they may be wrong about finding him guilty but they found him guilty. The question is: do we trust the jury? For a lot of us, we don't just trust the jury we agree with their decision after finding our own facts. You are the one who doesn't, you appear to be in the minority, your arguement is base on your belief of the defendent's intention which is contradicted by his actions, and on top of that you claim biases and prejudice for the jury which you can't proof. You are engaging is a circular arguement in which your belief takes precedent over reality - if reality contradicts your belief then reality is either bias or wrong.
    I am more than willing to allow that an action may be illegal even while supporting it. Just like I am capable of believing an action is legal while opposing it. Here I believe it is legal and I support it. My point about prejudicing the jury was backed up by my source noting some of the things put forward as part of the prosecution's case. The T-shirt about the U.S. mint has no conceivable relevance to any aspect of the charges except to serve as a piece of information that might shape the jury into holding negative views towards the defendant. "Evidence" like that makes me wonder what else the prosecution tried to feed the jury, especially when the U.S. attorney in that area is likening it to domestic terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well how can he be found guilty? I agree that it's not counterfeiting because it was not meant to be taken as legal tender. However, it seems almost a certainty that there's an executive order out there which bars competing currency like this. It sounds like something the government would do.
    Any measure that seeks to prohibit a person's ability to accept and offer different forms of payment would be unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Demon of Light; 03-22-11 at 07:54 PM.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I am more than willing to allow that an action may be illegal even while supporting it. Just like I am capable of believing an action is legal while opposing it. Here I believe it is legal and I support it. My point about prejudicing the jury was backed up by my source noting some of the things put forward as part of the prosecution's case. The T-shirt about the U.S. mint has no conceivable relevance to any aspect of the charges except to serve as a piece of information that might shape the jury into holding negative views towards the defendant. "Evidence" like that makes me wonder what else the prosecution tried to feed the jury, especially when the U.S. attorney in that area is likening it to domestic terrorism.



    Any measure that seeks to prohibit a person's ability to accept and offer different forms of payment would be unconstitutional.

    That may be but I'm talking about your belief that he's not guilty of the charges. You say "my source", what source?
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    That may be but I'm talking about your belief that he's not guilty of the charges.
    I know what you are talking about, but it seems the unstated accusation would be that I am somehow biased in my consideration of the legal question. There is no reason for me to be biased and I make a point of objectively evaluating technical matters like this.

    You say "my source", what source?
    It was just two pages back that I posted it.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Interestingly the raid on their offices occurred around the same time that Ron Paul's campaign was making serious financial and popular gains.
    I don't believe the raid had anything to do per se with Ron Paul's campaign. FWIW, the Ron Paul coins would have amounted to an in-kind campaign contribution. Such contributions are legal if they are disclosed by the campaigns receiving them. Given the timing of the raid, no campaign finance issues were raised by the coin's having been minted.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Any measure that seeks to prohibit a person's ability to accept and offer different forms of payment would be unconstitutional.
    I'm not disagreeing. I think bartering and what have you should be allowed. I just thought that there would probably be a law or executive order against competing currencies because that sounds like something the government would do.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I don't believe the raid had anything to do per se with Ron Paul's campaign.
    I am not surprised you think that, but I find the timing quite interesting. This was just about a week after the big November 5th moneybomb. Had you noticed the kind of funny business going on with media coverage you would probably have less trouble believing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not disagreeing. I think bartering and what have you should be allowed. I just thought that there would probably be a law or executive order against competing currencies because that sounds like something the government would do.
    It would be plainly unconstitutional to prevent voluntary exchange of goods. However, the laws may be written in such a manner as to allow someone to justify an action against such actions. One of the laws in this case, for instance, uses the term "current money" instead of legal tender. People, such as those you find in a jury, can easily be made to believe that it means something other than legal tender.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I know what you are talking about, but it seems the unstated accusation would be that I am somehow biased in my consideration of the legal question. There is no reason for me to be biased and I make a point of objectively evaluating technical matters like this.
    I suppose that's what you think but when you call anyone who can't tell the coins apart "without a modicum of intelligence" despite the fact that the coin bears marks that are meant to look like those by the Mint - with the picture, the words that might confuse other people who doesn't care enough to look. And then instead of acknowledging what "real money" is taken to mean by most people, you stick to what you feel it should mean. Basically, you only look at the issue from your perspective and trivialise any other perspective as bias, stupid, or you put the liability somewhere else (with the business owner say). That's the opposite of objective, you are the definition of subjective. Aliens don't think of themselves as Aliens.


    It was just two pages back that I posted it.
    Page taken off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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