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Thread: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post

    I would prefer individuals issuing their own currencies to this perverse state-monopoly capitalism.
    Then you could always move out of the country.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post



    In this case businesses have reached an agreement to accept Liberty Dollars. These are not being given to businesses under the auspices of being a valid currency across the country, but as a currency only valid where it is accepted. We are talking about a system based entirely on consent between individuals to accept something other than U.S. currency as a method of payment. No aspect of that is in any way illegal unless you don't believe in rights.

    Your own article says that:

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The charges against Innes include passing coins resembling genuine U.S. coins and intended for use as money, mail fraud and possession Liberty Dollar coins with intent to defraud. Authorities said when he was arrested that he faces up to 45 years in prison.

    Despite warnings from the federal government, Innes told the Citizen-Times in 2006 that Liberty Dollars were legal.

    The charges appears to have to do with passing off the currency as the same the real dollar (with descriptions such as 'the words “dollar,” “USA,” “Liberty,” “Trust in God” (instead of “In God We Trust”) and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coins') and fraud (giving it as change to unwitting customers who paid with the "real" dollar).
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    The U.S. Mint's action was just part of a propaganda campaign to suppress a dissenting action. What he was doing was perfectly legal and there was no claim that the Liberty Dollars constituted legal tender. The term "real money" is just making the point that it is based on something real meaning precious metals.
    You are using a disingenuous arguement. "Real money" to most people means "legal tender". The picture of the coin also shows a conscious effort to look like the coin issued by the US Mint.

    If you want to argue that people should have a right to issue money that can compete with the Reserves Notes, then fine, but to say that "real money" doesn't really mean real money makes you look ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Hence his crime.

    If it were legal tender then it would be, well, legal.
    It not being legal tender is not the same as it being illegal. Legal tender means it is the official government-issued currency valid anywhere in the United States. This explicitly said it was not official currency but that it was private and voluntary.

    He was attempting to establish a fiat currency.
    Fiat currency refers to currency that it is not tied to any sort of commodity and the Liberty Dollar was tied to precious metals like silver, gold, and platinum.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    It most definitely does. Only Congress can authorize the minting of money. To claim that his barter currency was "money" put him in violation of the law. Furthermore, to assert that his barter currency was "real money" for some supposed attribute that the U.S. dollar lacked, was an attack on the legal tender currency. Of course, the court reviewed far more information than was available on his website.
    The terms for legal tender are "legal tender" and "current money" both terms explicitly stated by the group as not being valid terms for the Liberty Dollar. Nowhere in the Constitution or U.S. does it say only Congress can mint money or authorize the minting of money. It is clear under the law that only money minted in such a manner can be legal tender and it is made clear that this is not the case with the Liberty Dollar meaning it is not legal tender.

    That a jury found him guilty after less than two hours of deliberation indicates that the jury that convicted him also found the case to be quite clear-cut, as I believe it is.
    In this case the U.S. attorney for the area likened him to a terrorist, making me wonder what kind of garbage the prosecution fed the jury and sure enough:

    Among the 75 exhibits presented by the prosecution were Liberty Dollars, a T-shirt screened "U.S. Mint can bite me!" and production items confiscated from the privately owned Sunshine Mint in Idaho, where Liberty Dollars were produced under contract.

    The prosecution's first witness, an FBI special agent, testified that the Liberty Dollar resembles and is confused with U.S. currency, and that the marketing of the Liberty Dollar was a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme.
    Source: Coin World

    Just from that I can imagine the prosecution basically tried to paint Bernad von Nothaus as a radical anti-government nut who was swindling people and imperiling the U.S. economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Your own article says that:




    The charges appears to have to do with passing off the currency as the same the real dollar (with descriptions such as 'the words “dollar,” “USA,” “Liberty,” “Trust in God” (instead of “In God We Trust”) and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coins') and fraud (giving it as change to unwitting customers who paid with the "real" dollar).
    Exactly how many U.S. coins do you see that have a phone number, website, and the term "Liberty Dollar" on them? Also, if a business agrees to accept Liberty Dollars but does not make sure customers are not unwittingly given Liberty Dollars I would say the liability is on the business.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    You are using a disingenuous arguement. "Real money" to most people means "legal tender". The picture of the coin also shows a conscious effort to look like the coin issued by the US Mint.

    If you want to argue that people should have a right to issue money that can compete with the Reserves Notes, then fine, but to say that "real money" doesn't really mean real money makes you look ridiculous.
    Except in this case "real money" is intended to mean exactly what I said. In fact, if you look at the site (you can use the Way Back Machine at Internet Archive) you will see that on the site its usage of the term "real money" is simply saying that real money is inflation proof and goes on in that first part to define real money as gold and silver. In other words it is saying Liberty Dollars are real money because they are made of gold and silver not that it is legal tender.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It not being legal tender is not the same as it being illegal. Legal tender means it is the official government-issued currency valid anywhere in the United States. This explicitly said it was not official currency but that it was private and voluntary.
    What matters is how it's used. The coin itself can say whatever you want and doesn't make any difference. It being private is the whole problem, and voluntary just means you weren't forced to participate in the conspiracy.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    What matters is how it's used. The coin itself can say whatever you want and doesn't make any difference. It being private is the whole problem, and voluntary just means you weren't forced to participate in the conspiracy.
    It being private is irrelevant so long as it is not claiming to be or intended to be used as legal tender. The Liberty Dollar is in fact never claimed to be legal tender and clearly is not intended to be used as legal tender since on the very front of its brochures it is described as a private voluntary barter currency. Were it intended to be used a legal tender they would not put in big text on the front of their brochure phrasing that clearly suggests it is not.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It being private is irrelevant so long as it is not claiming to be or intended to be used as legal tender. The Liberty Dollar is in fact never claimed to be legal tender and clearly is not intended to be used as legal tender since on the very front of its brochures it is described as a private voluntary barter currency. Were it intended to be used a legal tender they would not put in big text on the front of their brochure phrasing that clearly suggests it is not.
    That's a felony. You can't do that. Private currencies are illegal.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It not being legal tender is not the same as it being illegal. Legal tender means it is the official government-issued currency valid anywhere in the United States. This explicitly said it was not official currency but that it was private and voluntary.



    Fiat currency refers to currency that it is not tied to any sort of commodity and the Liberty Dollar was tied to precious metals like silver, gold, and platinum.



    The terms for legal tender are "legal tender" and "current money" both terms explicitly stated by the group as not being valid terms for the Liberty Dollar. Nowhere in the Constitution or U.S. does it say only Congress can mint money or authorize the minting of money. It is clear under the law that only money minted in such a manner can be legal tender and it is made clear that this is not the case with the Liberty Dollar meaning it is not legal tender.



    In this case the U.S. attorney for the area likened him to a terrorist, making me wonder what kind of garbage the prosecution fed the jury and sure enough:



    Source: Coin World

    Just from that I can imagine the prosecution basically tried to paint Bernad von Nothaus as a radical anti-government nut who was swindling people and imperiling the U.S. economy.



    Exactly how many U.S. coins do you see that have a phone number, website, and the term "Liberty Dollar" on them? Also, if a business agrees to accept Liberty Dollars but does not make sure customers are not unwittingly given Liberty Dollars I would say the liability is on the business.



    Except in this case "real money" is intended to mean exactly what I said. In fact, if you look at the site (you can use the Way Back Machine at Internet Archive) you will see that on the site its usage of the term "real money" is simply saying that real money is inflation proof and goes on in that first part to define real money as gold and silver. In other words it is saying Liberty Dollars are real money because they are made of gold and silver not that it is legal tender.

    When people give me a coin, I don't say: wait, I'll check a website. I take a cursory glance see that it's quite like the one I'm used to and assume it's okay. I won't take the time to notice a phone number or whatever. Maybe I'm niave, but I believe alot of people are like that and these people are preying on people's trust. We trust the government to issue money, the people who make these coins use that fact and issue coins that look very much like those issued by the government. They could have choosen other designs that differentiate their coins from the pfficial mint's (which they claim to desire) but they didn't and I don't think it's a coincident.

    Whatever they "intend" it to mean, it doesn't change that fact that "real money" is understood to mean "legal tender" by most people. I can say when I call a black person a nigger, I intend it to mean as an affectionate term for blacks, it doesn't change the fact that most people sees it as a derogative term. Again, I don't think it was incidential that they choose that term. It was meant to confuse their money with the real "real money".
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

    That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.
    While I can see why the government wouldn't want competition with currency (even though there are many forms of alternative curriencies), "terrorist" is well over the top. I don't see why everything has to be terrorism these days. Besides, I've seen the liberty dollar, it's goal was not to spread fear and to try to get one's way through violence and terror. It was simply a metal backed currency and nothing more. We need to calm down with the sort of rhetoric we're using, if a US Attorney is going to be this out of control, then we're going to have to reel this in and starting being more responsible.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    In this case the U.S. attorney for the area likened him to a terrorist, making me wonder what kind of garbage the prosecution fed the jury and sure enough:


    ...Just from that I can imagine the prosecution basically tried to paint Bernad von Nothaus as a radical anti-government nut who was swindling people and imperiling the U.S. economy.
    As noted earlier, I believe the language referring to him as a "domestic terrorist" was a stretch. Having said that, the facts of the case remain the same. Mr. von NotHaus did not merely make commemorative coins. That would have been entirely legal. Instead, he attempted to create an alternative money without Congressional Authority. That violates the law. He was properly convicted. Unless he can somehow demonstrate that Congress had authorized or at least accepted his creating an alternative currency, any appeals he makes will also be unsuccessful. IMO, given the gravity of the situation (an attempt to undermine the U.S. currency) and lack of any indication of remorse to date for his criminal activity, I suspect that the judge will sentence him to serve a substantial portion of the maximum period permitted for the charges on which he was convicted.

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