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Thread: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

    That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.
    Domestic terrorism, that's ridiculous.

    I'd support a basket of currencies for individuals to use, to avoid inflation and other problems associated with national currencies.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    I think what you need to realize is that the constitution was written by people in a different time.
    Does not matter when it was written as long as it is derived from a careful study of societal history and its many failings and brief triumphs. In 5000 years of civilization, the human condition has changed little. It is in fact more important that it was written in a different time, as they were direct witnesses to the many devices of tyranny and far more familiar with the history of tyranny.

    There were assumptions made when it was written, assumptions like "the gov't has no powers except those dictated here" and "the gov't will have responsible monitary policy."
    The assumption is on the part of modern forces thinking the founders were in any way whishy-washy in their laws, guidelines and warnings. It is assumptive that the congress can abdicate it's responsibility for the issuing of money based on anything other than gold and silver.

    W
    hen the gov't is simply printing more money, devaluing the only currency we are allowed to use, I think it is the responsiblity of the citizens to take care of themselves and establish a currency that is immune to the gov't debt and unlimited money printing. One that the amount in circulation will be tightly controlled. If our gov't won't follow the rules, why should we?
    Why? Because it's in the best interest of the common good. That was the whole point of the union in the first place. If our elected public servants have lost there way, it's our patriotic duty to remind them of their role and restore the order and balance of power.

    When the gov't fails us, it's not free license for us all to go willy nilly nutso... it's a call to our patriotism to set our gov't back on it's proper path or replace it.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Although the rhetoric is a bit over the top, there are very good reasons for the government to tightly regulate currency and monopolize our nation's monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Chairman and the Secretary of the Treasury are appointed by the President, who is elected by the people. Who elected THIS bozo? It could end very very badly if private currencies became widely used.
    I don't get this.
    We have a forex market where people exchange out U.S. dollars for other forms of currency, that can debase the national money.
    Not to mention that barter "currencies" are already in wide spread use.

    All this guy did was make an official barter currency, nothing wrong with that.
    More wide spread use could encourage the central bank to keep a more conservative fiscal policy.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, that's my point. You claimed that "a currency's life or death will have no impact" as long as people continue to use SOME kind of currency. This is completely belied by many historical counterexamples, of which the death of the Zim Dollar is only the most recent.
    Dude, did you even remotely pay attention to what I was saying? When Zimbabwe was in the throes of that currency crisis it did not allow any foreign currency to be used. Once it did allow other currencies the situation quickly stabilized. In other words, what I said was actually backed up by the situation in Zimbabwe.

    I find it ironic that you criticize the Federal Reserve for catering to corporate interests, while supporting a private currency whose SOLE PURPOSE is to cater to corporate interests.
    Whose corporate interests was the Liberty Dollar catering to exactly?

    At least the government is in charge of who runs the Federal Reserve, unlike who runs the liberty dollar central bank (or whatever its equivalent is), and they theoretically have the public interest in mind.
    Except the government isn't actually in charge of the Federal Reserve. Weren't you paying attention?

    As for being impacted by the debt...OK, suppose that these private currencies became commonplace. What's stopping them from running debt of their own and paying for it by printing more of their currency? You act like the temporal problems of the federal government can be solved by abandonment of our own monetary policy, but it isn't that simple, because the private sector is hardly immune to the same type of problems. And even if they were, they are not motivated by protecting the public interest.
    First of all, the fact of there being other currencies means if one has these problems another can be used. Also, private groups would not be quite as capable of doing what the government does in terms of debt and monetary policy.

    The Federal Reserve can raise interest rates when they want to fight inflation, or lower interest rates when they want to fight unemployment. A private currency operator won't give a damn about unemployment, and will only care about inflation inasmuch as it affects their own bottom line.
    It isn't about "fighting unemployment" when they lower interest rates. Call it what it is: protecting corporate profits. The first and most lucrative beneficiaries of a lower interest rate are those who borrow directly from the Fed, meaning the big banks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The Constitution is quite clear, only Congress has the authority to coin money. No one else. We can't go back to having competing currencies.
    Show me in the Constitution where it says "only" Congress can coin money. It says Congress has the power to coin money, but at no point gives it the exclusive right. In particular it does not deny the people a right to use whatever medium of exchange they want amongst themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Coins for game-machines are not being presented as 'real money' - it's a token piece which was purchased for use in a machine all for the financial security of the business (so there's a reduction in machine-theft and vandalism as they don't have real coins in the games). This is not 'real tender' and it is 'legal' to use in a game-machine but it is *not* legal to use elsewhere - you can't use them to buy a soda at a store down the street.

    But making your own money - and then using that money in stores and businesses in town is NOT legal.

    ONLY Congress has the authority to make real money to use in exchange for goods or payment of services = legal tender. So, yes, it is a REAL legitimate issue - it is not legal tender.



    Do you really think I should be able to print off money at my home computer and go to my local grocery store and buy groceries with it when everyone else has to actually earn their money and become subject to inflation, etc?

    Why should someone who decides to make their own money be permitted to do exactly that?
    In this case businesses have reached an agreement to accept Liberty Dollars. These are not being given to businesses under the auspices of being a valid currency across the country, but as a currency only valid where it is accepted. We are talking about a system based entirely on consent between individuals to accept something other than U.S. currency as a method of payment. No aspect of that is in any way illegal unless you don't believe in rights.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Show me in the Constitution where it says "only" Congress can coin money. It says Congress has the power to coin money, but at no point gives it the exclusive right. In particular it does not deny the people a right to use whatever medium of exchange they want amongst themselves.
    This is most ignorant thing I've read on this forum in a long time.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is most ignorant thing I've read on this forum in a long time.
    He is right though and the US government did not coin all the money throughout the history of the US

    History of US Paper Money

    .
    1836 State Bank Notes
    With minimum regulation, a proliferation of 1,600 local state-chartered, private banks now issued paper money. State bank notes, with over 30,000 varieties of color and design, were easily counterfeited. That, along with bank failures, caused confusion and circulation problems.

    snip

    1866 National Bank Notes
    National Bank Notes, backed by U.S. government securities, became predominant. By this time, 75 percent of bank deposits were held by nationally chartered banks. As State Bank Notes were replaced, the value of currency stabilized for a time

    1913 Federal Reserve Act
    After 1893 and 1907 financial panics, the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed. It created the Federal Reserve System as the nation's central bank to regulate the flow of money and credit for economic stability and growth. The system was authorized to issue Federal Reserve Notes, now the only U.S. currency produced and 99 percent of all currency in circulation

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    He is right though and the US government did not coin all the money throughout the history of the US

    History of US Paper Money

    .
    Please link to Congress authorizing Bernard von NotHaus to make US currency.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Dude, did you even remotely pay attention to what I was saying? When Zimbabwe was in the throes of that currency crisis it did not allow any foreign currency to be used. Once it did allow other currencies the situation quickly stabilized. In other words, what I said was actually backed up by the situation in Zimbabwe.



    Whose corporate interests was the Liberty Dollar catering to exactly?



    Except the government isn't actually in charge of the Federal Reserve. Weren't you paying attention?



    First of all, the fact of there being other currencies means if one has these problems another can be used. Also, private groups would not be quite as capable of doing what the government does in terms of debt and monetary policy.



    It isn't about "fighting unemployment" when they lower interest rates. Call it what it is: protecting corporate profits. The first and most lucrative beneficiaries of a lower interest rate are those who borrow directly from the Fed, meaning the big banks.



    Show me in the Constitution where it says "only" Congress can coin money. It says Congress has the power to coin money, but at no point gives it the exclusive right. In particular it does not deny the people a right to use whatever medium of exchange they want amongst themselves.



    In this case businesses have reached an agreement to accept Liberty Dollars. These are not being given to businesses under the auspices of being a valid currency across the country, but as a currency only valid where it is accepted. We are talking about a system based entirely on consent between individuals to accept something other than U.S. currency as a method of payment. No aspect of that is in any way illegal unless you don't believe in rights.
    This is not about how people *feel* - this concerns what *did* and *did not* happen. He intended for it to be used *as* money *instead* of our legal currency - that is what he did, there's no arguing that fact

    it's cut and dry. .

    I wouldn't call it 'domestic terrorism' like they did - nor do I think it's as egregious of a crime as they made it out to be. But illegal? Indeed.

    I have Iraqi-GI currency - which are just cardboard disks with images printed on it for use in Iraq and other areas of the Middle East only for Soldiers. This was legitimately created by Congress as a supplement to hardcoin currency for use overseas and has no value outside certain areas. It really represents an actual coin that is reserved - they just chose this as a wise alternative to actually *having* coinage in a warzone for several different reasons.
    This is exactly what this guy did, really - an alternative form of 'money' which only certain 'businesses' accept. But he is not Congress. He has no authority to replace our legal tender with his own legal tender - clever spokesman or not.

    Just because they didn't think it through doesn't mean it's legitimate.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Dude, did you even remotely pay attention to what I was saying? When Zimbabwe was in the throes of that currency crisis it did not allow any foreign currency to be used. Once it did allow other currencies the situation quickly stabilized. In other words, what I said was actually backed up by the situation in Zimbabwe.



    Whose corporate interests was the Liberty Dollar catering to exactly?



    Except the government isn't actually in charge of the Federal Reserve. Weren't you paying attention?



    First of all, the fact of there being other currencies means if one has these problems another can be used. Also, private groups would not be quite as capable of doing what the government does in terms of debt and monetary policy.



    It isn't about "fighting unemployment" when they lower interest rates. Call it what it is: protecting corporate profits. The first and most lucrative beneficiaries of a lower interest rate are those who borrow directly from the Fed, meaning the big banks.



    Show me in the Constitution where it says "only" Congress can coin money. It says Congress has the power to coin money, but at no point gives it the exclusive right. In particular it does not deny the people a right to use whatever medium of exchange they want amongst themselves.



    In this case businesses have reached an agreement to accept Liberty Dollars. These are not being given to businesses under the auspices of being a valid currency across the country, but as a currency only valid where it is accepted. We are talking about a system based entirely on consent between individuals to accept something other than U.S. currency as a method of payment. No aspect of that is in any way illegal unless you don't believe in rights.
    Whether they have "value" as a "currency" is a red herring. They are made of silver. They have value everywhere silver is valued... which is everywhere. The only worry here was their alleged similarity to coins produced by the US Mint. You may not be able to pay your taxes with them, but you can cash them in for Fed currency to pay them.

    Funny thing is... as the Fed Fiat Dollar loses value, the silver in these coins continues to rise far past the face value of the coins. Would I accept them as payment for something? Hell yes I would!

    To the issue of the powers to create money... before the Fed, each Bank and each region produced a form of it's own currency as redeemable gold or silver certificates. The only way this would have been possible is on a commodity standard.

    Sad when both a government and it's citizens become ignorant of their own history...
    Last edited by Occam's Razor; 03-20-11 at 04:56 PM.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't get this.
    We have a forex market where people exchange out U.S. dollars for other forms of currency, that can debase the national money.
    Forex markets do not debase our national currency, they're merely a reflection of what the value of our currency already is. If people demand more dollars, the value will rise. If people demand fewer dollars, the value will fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Not to mention that barter "currencies" are already in wide spread use.
    Depends how you define "widespread." As long as they're relatively small, the government tolerates them merely because they aren't worth the hassle. If they get big enough then the government shuts them down. The key is to make sure that they're only a minor nuisance, rather than a big economic problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    All this guy did was make an official barter currency, nothing wrong with that.
    More wide spread use could encourage the central bank to keep a more conservative fiscal policy.
    For countries with extremely irresponsible monetary policies (e.g. Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina) that is true. For everyone else, it isn't. Especially when the alternative currency in question does not compete with the national currency on the basis of being more conservative. And even if it did, it's not clear to me why a conservative monetary policy is inherently so desirable that we need an undemocratic private currency to establish it for us. Just convince the voters that we need a conservative monetary policy, and they'll elect a President who will appoint Milton Friedman's corpse to chair the Fed. People have no right to subvert the democratic process to establish their own independent monetary policy.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-20-11 at 05:49 PM.
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