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Thread: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Too late.
    In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.
    Yikes! .......

    Secret Meeting Discussing Dumping US Dollar As Oil Currency | Culture of Life News
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Source: The Asheville Citizen-Times

    That is right, making money that is clearly distinct from U.S. government money and reaching agreement with businesses to accept said money is terrorism. I am curious when there are going to be federal raids on Chuck E. Cheese's, since it is clearly a hotbed of terrorism indoctrinating our youth with subversive activity.
    Coins for game-machines are not being presented as 'real money' - it's a token piece which was purchased for use in a machine all for the financial security of the business (so there's a reduction in machine-theft and vandalism as they don't have real coins in the games). This is not 'real tender' and it is 'legal' to use in a game-machine but it is *not* legal to use elsewhere - you can't use them to buy a soda at a store down the street.

    But making your own money - and then using that money in stores and businesses in town is NOT legal.

    ONLY Congress has the authority to make real money to use in exchange for goods or payment of services = legal tender. So, yes, it is a REAL legitimate issue - it is not legal tender.

    Congress has exclusive power to coin money in the U.S. and to regulate its value, according to the Treasury Department.
    Do you really think I should be able to print off money at my home computer and go to my local grocery store and buy groceries with it when everyone else has to actually earn their money and become subject to inflation, etc?

    Why should someone who decides to make their own money be permitted to do exactly that?
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 03-20-11 at 09:56 AM.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Do you really think I should be able to print off money at my home computer and go to my local grocery store and buy groceries with it when everyone else has to actually earn their money and become subject to inflation, etc?Why should someone who decides to make their own money be permitted to do exactly that?
    I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

    If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

    If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?
    But this issue in question isn't bartering. Bartering is one service or quantity for an agreed on other - it's not regulated or institutionalized - but people do it all the time. It is legal and nothing wrong with it - not even gift certificates, coupons and write-offs are an actual problem.

    Now - like they did in New York - a business can begin to accept foreign currency as legal currency for goods, sure, without any problems.

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

    If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?
    Well, one good reason is the one that you just mentioned: Because it's a way to evade taxes. Other good reasons include the societal interest in having a coordinated monetary policy, the inherent instability in private currencies (and therefore the economy as a whole if the private currencies are widely used), the lack of public accountability in private currencies, and the widespread potential for fraud in private currencies.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think the reason much of it exists is to avoid taxes...barter/exchange sorts of things.

    If Tom's Deli decides to have his car fixed by Andy and pays him with a gift certificate at his store, the tax man doesn't make any money. I've simplified it here, but I think that's what's going on. Though barter/exchange is very much underground, I think the government doesn't like it -- not because it's creating a new kind of money -- but because it's an effective way to avoid paying income tax. Have to ask....why shouldn't people be able to barter/exchange?
    That would be the misconception that is perpetuated with the use of a non US currency. However, the IRS has a requirement that you report benefits and gifts over a certain dollar amount. In this case, the benefits and gifts are the exchange of services.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Individuals issuing their own currencies is a recipe for disaster. It means that there would be little to no stability in our economy, and little ability for the government to tame bubbles or mitigate recessions. The economic problems in Greece are a good example of what happens when a nation can't control its own monetary policy. Greece badly needs to devalue its currency, but it doesn't have one, so it will be stuck in a recession for years.
    Bubbles, recessions, inflation, are largely symptomatic of fiat currency. This does not happen as easily with commodity backed currencies.

    You'd think we'd have learned our lesson the first time...

    The United States Constitution does not mention paper money by that name. Nor does it refer to paper currency or fiat money in those words. There is only one direct reference to the origins of what we, and they, usually call paper money. It is in the limitations on the power of the states in Article I, Section 10. It reads, “No State shall . . . emit Bills of Credit . . . .” Paper that was intended to circulate as money but was not redeemable in gold and silver was technically described as bills of credit at that time. The description was (and is) apt. Such paper is a device for expanding the credit of the issuer. There is also an indirect reference to the practice in the same section of the Constitution. It reads, “No State shall . . . make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts . . . .” Legal tender laws, in practice, are an essential expedient for making unredeemable paper circulate as money. Except for the one direct and one indirect reference to the origin and means for circulating paper money, the Constitution is silent on the question.

    The Constitution And Paper Money – Tenth Amendment Center
    This is an awesome read... I encourage all to spend the time.

    Individuals issuing their own currency is definitely not a good idea on so many levels. However, paper to facilitate trade among peoples I don't have much of a problem with, and in many respects, encourage.

    Most of these systems are designed not so much to undermine our worthless debt based fiat currency, but to send a clear message to congress that they have abdicated their constitutional duty to issue money based on gold and silver only.

    This talk of anti-governmental terrorism is extremely dangerous to We the People, and very telling of the shift from gov't being servants of the People, and the We the People become subjects of the gov't. It is our right and our duty to undermine, dismantle or replace our gov't if it ever ceases to be a servant of the People and wholly disregards it's duty to keep the Public Trust they have been given.

    Not only do I think it's wrong for individuals to issue paper money, it's even more wrong for our government to do so. That's the bottom line.

    All this talk of destabilizing our monetary system is a joke... our monetary system is fiat, a ghost, not real, based on belief in value, rooted in debt not wealth. Owning more "dollars", merely means owning more of the collective debt owed the Federal Reserve by We the People, spent by our elected public servants. It's not wealth.

    Tell me... if the Fed creates every dollar (paper at a cost of about $0.07 a bill, electronically essentially free) and then charges interest on the money it creates and loans to us for use... where does the money come from to pay that interest back? The Fed then prints more money...

    Each dollar in circulation has about 2-3% of it's original value when the Federal Reserve System was enacted. How much longer do you think it can hold on before a complete devaluation?

    Read the article... the founders knew what they were doing... and tried to warn us.
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The Constitution is quite clear, only Congress has the authority to coin money. No one else. We can't go back to having competing currencies.
    I think what you need to realize is that the constitution was written by people in a different time. There were assumptions made when it was written, assumptions like "the gov't has no powers except those dictated here" and "the gov't will have responsible monitary policy."

    When the gov't is simply printing more money, devaluing the only currency we are allowed to use, I think it is the responsiblity of the citizens to take care of themselves and establish a currency that is immune to the gov't debt and unlimited money printing. One that the amount in circulation will be tightly controlled. If our gov't won't follow the rules, why should we?

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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    I think what you need to realize is that the constitution was written by people in a different time. There were assumptions made when it was written, assumptions like "the gov't has no powers except those dictated here" and "the gov't will have responsible monitary policy."

    When the gov't is simply printing more money, devaluing the only currency we are allowed to use, I think it is the responsiblity of the citizens to take care of themselves and establish a currency that is immune to the gov't debt and unlimited money printing. One that the amount in circulation will be tightly controlled. If our gov't won't follow the rules, why should we?
    So instead of having a government-issued currency which enables "government debt and unlimited money printing" (policies which are ultimately accountable to the voters) we should instead have private currencies which are NOT accountable to the public and ALSO allow for unlimited debt and money printing?

    I think the people who are so eager to criticize the US dollar should be careful that the solutions they're proposing actually solve the problem they've identified...
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    Re: Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    I think what you need to realize is that the constitution was written by people in a different time.
    Yes but it was written for a people of any time.

    I appreciate your attempt to apply that anti-gun argument to another topic, that the constitution is somehow outdated and doesn't account for today's circumstances, but that argument fails everywhere it's tried.
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