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Thread: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In case you haven't noticed, the people with the real authority--that's us--have decided to repeal the so-called, "progressive reforms".
    now those people that spent their career in government service, earning a smaller slary than they may have obtained working in the public sector, but with inferior pension benefits ... are they going to have forfeited the opportunity to earn a higher salary over their career for superior pension benefits only to now lose that superior pension after the fact?
    since you insist 'the people' have made this decision, i was hoping 'the people' could now answer that question

    More people, everyday, are realizing that those progressive reforms are pushing farther into the 15th Century rather than the 21st Century.
    specifically, what about those 'progressive reforms' do you find moves us back to the 1400's ?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Uhh, permits have been issued.
    Obama was under a court order to lift the moratorium and he ignored the order.

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    now those people that spent their career in government service, earning a smaller slary than they may have obtained working in the public sector, but with inferior pension benefits ... are they going to have forfeited the opportunity to earn a higher salary over their career for superior pension benefits only to now lose that superior pension after the fact?
    since you insist 'the people' have made this decision, i was hoping 'the people' could now answer that question
    How are you going to pay for it?


    specifically, what about those 'progressive reforms' do you find moves us back to the 1400's ?
    Wealth redistribution. Progressives want all the money to be placed in the hands of a priviledged few--the nobility--while the people--the peasantry--are subject to their rules, wims, never having a hope in hell of getting ahead in life, because we've been forced to become dependent on their hand outs. Sounds like Medieval Europe, to me.

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your comments are absurd and ridiculous. The law as passed this week by the Republicans and signed by a Republican governor goes far far beyond any provisions of the old law. It is like comparing clipping a nail to amputating an arm.

    But regardless ... is that your standard of what is right? Your standard is to excuse what was done this week because a much much milder bill with a similar name was signed by a Democrat?!?!?!?!?

    That is what you want to make this about?!?!?!?!?

    If that is so - is all yours pal. Just leave your Ronald Reagan autographed holy card at the door and flush the so called 'small government Republican principles' down the toilet with the rest of the crap.

    Years ago we had principled conservatives that stood for principle. I can see there are none here.
    you really do suck at this you know...

    Far beyond is an extreme exaggeration... not overly surprising coming from you.

    This is what the amended law does... and it's only bad if you're a union stooge.

    The Senate stripped out a provision that would have allowed a firm to be named emergency financial manager and added provisions to increase an emergency's financial manager's accountability to the Legislature and the state treasurer. The act allows emergency financial managers, appointed by the governor, to overrule elected officials and dissolve units of government and school districts as they work to fix a municipality's or district's finances.
    Can Detroit
    Michigan Public Act 72 of 1990, as amended, provides for the appointment of an Emergency Financial Manager if it is determined that a serious financial problem exists in a municipality or school district. The appointment of an EFM for the city of Detroit is often discussed as a possible solution for dealing with the city’s continual mismanagement and financial mess.

    If it were ever determined by the state that an EFM should be appointed for the city of Detroit, under current law the EFM would not have all of the necessary tools to be successful. There are four major problems that would have to be resolved by amending Act 72 prior to the appointment of an EFM.
    Making changes to Act 72 would be essential for an EFM to have the necessary tools to deal with the city of Detroit’s management and fiscal problems.

    The changes needed are as follows:
    1. Under current law, the EFM can be sued personally. Given that actions by an EFM will almost certainly be controversial, and harassing lawsuits are likely, it is essential that an EFM’s personal assets be protected. Making the EFM an employee of the state treasury department with access to the legal staff of the attorney general would make the present lack of indemnification for an EFM largely moot. Harassing lawsuits by local bargaining units or other affected entities or individuals would be defended by the state – an entity that has the depth of financial resources to discourage the filing of frivolous lawsuits.

    2. The present Act lists the powers of an EFM, which are extensive but are not all-inclusive. This can allow the governing body to impede the overall effort of the EFM to deal with the municipality’s fiscal crisis. The Act should state that the EFM replaces and takes on the powers of the governing body (mayor and council or school board.)

    3. Charter provisions, especially in old charters, can prevent or make it difficult for an EFM to make necessary structural changes to address financial problems. The EFM should have the power to review charter provisions that frustrate the process of cleaning up and streamlining a municipality’s financial functions.

    4. Presently, most labor contracts provide for mandatory continuation of an expired contract until a new one is negotiated. This means municipalities have no opportunity to take advantage of lower-cost service providers. Additionally, in the case of public safety unions, municipalities must adhere to the provisions of Act 312, which mandates that when a municipality and union cannot agree on the terms of a new contract they must go to binding arbitration. In most cases, it takes nearly two years or longer to complete the process, and the legal costs are substantial. Furthermore, municipalities rarely reduce costs by going through the Act 312 process but rather, at best, limit the amount of increased expenses. Act 312 should be repealed in its entirety.
    Making the above changes to Act 72 would be essential for an EFM to have the necessary tools to deal with the city of Detroit’s management and fiscal problems.

    If Michigan is sincerely interested in keeping and attracting new business it needs to face rather than ignore the issue of the state’s excessively high, non-competitive municipal labor costs. High labor costs for municipalities result in high municipal taxes, which in turn make municipalities unattractive and create major fiscal problems.

    Currently the auto, airlines and other private sector industries are being forced to deal with their high labor costs in order to stay in business and become competitive. However, Michigan municipalities are handcuffed from dealing with their high labor costs by labor contracts that cannot be terminated. Such contracts prevent the possibility of purchasing municipal services at the lowest possible cost. Unlike the private sector, municipalities can’t move their operations to a market with lower labor costs. Also, unlike the private sector, municipalities can’t go out of business or declare bankruptcy and reorganize to reduce pension, health care, and labor costs.

    Michigan needs to remove the shackles preventing the purchase of municipal services at the lowest cost — not only for the few municipalities that fall into the position of having an EFM – but for all Michigan municipalities. Repealing Act 312 would be a giant step in the right direction.

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer
    Don't get your panties in a bunch, the Governor can address any old thing he/she wants to. However, the reason a candidate wouldn't mention certain things, is because they may not get elected in the first place. This is not rocket science, Whoian, In fact, there are polls which show that in a rematch Walker's Democratic opponent would beat Walker. We will see what happens after Walker has been in office one year. Stay tuned!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    link please?
    I thought not.

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How are you going to pay for it?
    what do you do when you obligate yourself to a debt
    do you find some basis to renege and welch on the contract you executed. a pension benefit, in this instance
    or do you pay what you owe
    rhetorical question. i, as the other forumites, know from your posts what your answer is

    Wealth redistribution. Progressives want all the money to be placed in the hands of a priviledged few--the nobility--while the people--the peasantry--are subject to their rules, wims, never having a hope in hell of getting ahead in life, because we've been forced to become dependent on their hand outs. Sounds like Medieval Europe, to me.
    i missed out on the wealth distribution of the 1400's. please show us in what cultures such a redistribution of wealth took place during the 15th century


    and you do seem to be confused. the progressives today generally believe that the wealth is concentrated disproportionately to too few. the very opposite of what you pretend with your weak (and bogus) effort at a nobility analogy
    since this graph was constructed, the gap between rich and poor is even wider.
    70% of wealth is held by 10% of the citizens
    59% of the wealth is owned by 5% of our population
    34% - over one-third - of the wealth is held by 1% of our people
    0.2% of the wealth is held by 40% of our population


    so, there is my data, your turn to show me your evidence of wealth redistribution in the 1400s
    i'm betting against you
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  7. #117
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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In case you haven't noticed, the people with the real authority--that's us--have decided to repeal the so-called, "progressive reforms".

    More people, everyday, are realizing that those progressive reforms are pushing farther into the 15th Century rather than the 21st Century.
    I look forward to your political, economic and social analysis of the 15th century and its parallels with modern America due to progressive reforms enacted in the USA in the last 110 years.

    This should be interesting.

    And while you are at that, you may want to open up your copy of the US Constitution and read Article I, Section 10 Powers Denied to the States. Then read the Court decision in Walker vs. Whitehead.

    The Constitution of the United States declares that no state shall pass any "law impairing the obligation of contracts."
    These propositions may be considered consequent axioms in our jurisprudence: The laws which exist at the time and place of the making of a contract, and where it is to be performed, enter into and form a part of it. This embraces alike those which affect its validity, construction, discharge, and enforcement.
    Nothing is more material to the obligation of a contract than the means of its enforcement. The ideas of validity
    Page 83 U. S. 318
    and remedy are inseparable, and both are parts of the obligation which is guaranteed by the Constitution against impairment.
    The obligation of a contract "is the law which binds the parties to perform their agreement."
    Any impairment of the obligation of a contract -- the degree of impairment is immaterial -- is within the prohibition of the Constitution.
    The states may change the remedy, provided no substantial right secured by the contract is impaired. Whenever such a result is produced by the act in question, to that extent it is void. The states are no more permitted to impair the efficacy of a contract in this way than to attack its vitality in any other manner. Against all assaults coming from that quarter, whatever guise they may assume, the contract is shielded by the Constitution. It must be left with the same force and effect, including the substantial means of enforcement, which existed when it was made. The guarantee of the Constitution gives it protection to that extent.
    Much of what is being done in places like Michigan and Wisconsin is aimed at doing exactly what the Court said COULD NOT BE DONE in this decision. It is a basic violation of the US Constitution.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-20-11 at 08:40 AM.
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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what do you do when you obligate yourself to a debt
    do you find some basis to renege and welch on the contract you executed. A pension benefit, in this instance
    or do you pay what you owe
    rhetorical question. I, as the other forumites, know from your posts what your answer is


    i missed out on the wealth distribution of the 1400's. Please show us in what cultures such a redistribution of wealth took place during the 15th century


    and you do seem to be confused. The progressives today generally believe that the wealth is concentrated disproportionately to too few. The very opposite of what you pretend with your weak (and bogus) effort at a nobility analogy
    since this graph was constructed, the gap between rich and poor is even wider.
    70% of wealth is held by 10% of the citizens
    59% of the wealth is owned by 5% of our population
    34% - over one-third - of the wealth is held by 1% of our people
    0.2% of the wealth is held by 40% of our population


    so, there is my data, your turn to show me your evidence of wealth redistribution in the 1400s
    i'm betting against you
    well so much for the old trickle down theory lol
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  9. #119
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    If Walker thought he was doing the correct thing, he should have mentioned it in his campaign, not spring it on the electorate once he took office. The guy is an authoritarian dictator or should I say dick tator.
    Yeah, I've seen that narrative lately being bandied about by the left. It's utter nonsense, of course, but any little bit helps when the best you can do is grasp at straws.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  10. #120
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    Re: Judge issues temporary order barring public union law's implementation

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Yeah, I've seen that narrative lately being bandied about by the left. It's utter nonsense, of course, but any little bit helps when the best you can do is grasp at straws.
    Do you have a copy of a Walker campaign commercial or speech where he clearly laid out his plan to end collective bargaining rights for public sector unions? The people of WI either missed the public unveiling of his scheme or he never mentioned it during the campaign. I'm guessing the latter; because WI is a strong union state and I highly doubt that WI voters would have elected Walker if he had been upfront about his intentions regarding unions.


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