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Thread: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I know that we only get 22% of our oil from the Middle East, but my point about our interest in any region of the ME for oil is that our allies get much more of it from the Middle East than we do and we keep their alliance, in part, by defending their interests.

    I agree that democracy was one of our primary interests, but I don't see as for the good will of the people (or else we'd be democratizing a lot more of the word). Democracy is less of a humanitarian interest and more of a strategic interest - i.e. increase stability and we stabilize our influence/other interests. In other words, our interest in helping Iraqis was not a primary interest - it was a side effect of seeking to advance our other interests: oil and democracy. Democracy (I believe at least) helps the Iraqi people get a sense of self-determination, but our mission was certainly not based in goodwill/humanitarian efforts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    To your point I'll comment both on oil and on spreading democracy. First, isn't the protection of these people Gaddafi is threatening to kill trying to mount an uprising to oust Gaddafi? The next logical step for his ousting is for a new government to take the place of the existing oppressive one which is (we hope) a Democracy so we are continuing to spread Democracy and nation build by this action - or rather as a result of this action. Second, Libya is only relevant because of their oil. A decent amount of that oil goes to France and the rest of Europe - so it make sense that the security of that oil is paramount. If the uprising fails, how much of the oil will go to Europe as a consequence of this action? Very little I'm guessing. So the sooner Gaddafi is out, dead or whatever, the easier it is for the U.S. and Europe to secure the country by whatever means and secure the oil. Democracy is a great thing, but not necessary to get the oil.

    Otherwise, does anyone REALLY believe we or any other country for that matter, would give a **** about Libya?
    I wish I had more time to comment, but I gotta go have a weekend activity and get the hell away from the computer for a little while!

    theplaydrive - I think you are really splitting hairs here.

    to both of you -

    1. We are the global security guarantor for the rest of the world. Part of that is oil and part of that is shipping lanes.
    2. If Libya and Iraq weren't in the major oil region of the world, we probably wouldn't care.
    3. It is in our strategic interest to spread democracy, in order to attempt to reduce radicalization and also to focus it inwards rather than outwards.
    4. It is also in our expression of values, to spread democracy to other countries...to be humanitarian.


    The 3rd and 4th point are separate points, I will agree. However, seeing as how we have been violating the 4th point for decades, it is in our interest diplomatically to the people of the ME to correct the hypocrisy. It just so happens that points 3 and 4 are harmoniously aligned with respect to Iraq and Libya.

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by ender1 View Post
    Are you asking me to go take pictures?
    No I'm asking for facts that verify your position.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post

    1. We are the global security guarantor for the rest of the world. Part of that is oil and part of that is shipping lanes.
    2. If Libya and Iraq weren't in the major oil region of the world, we probably wouldn't care.
    3. It is in our strategic interest to spread democracy, in order to attempt to reduce radicalization and also to focus it inwards rather than outwards.
    4. It is also in our expression of values, to spread democracy to other countries...to be humanitarian.


    The 3rd and 4th point are separate points, I will agree. However, seeing as how we have been violating the 4th point for decades, it is in our interest diplomatically to the people of the ME to correct the hypocrisy. It just so happens that points 3 and 4 are harmoniously aligned with respect to Iraq and Libya.
    I agree we are (whether we like it or not) the guarantor - the question is "should we be"? I certainly agree with point 2, which completely negates the whole "we're there for humanitarian reasons", same as the WMD issue and humanitarian issues in Iraq were debunked. Agree with point 3 as well, but again, the question is should we be doing this at end of a gun and have we learned nothing from Iraq OR, is this a lesson of Iraq and Iraq was a total success. Point 4 is bunk, sorry to say. Much worse humanitarian needs have occurred all over the world which did not involve emergency UN resolutions and a quick move of military no-fly zones. "Humanitarian needs" is a red herring - and a smelly one at that.
    Last edited by Ockham; 03-20-11 at 03:52 PM.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Yep. Instability and revolution in the Libyan population gives the United States a chance to help build another democracy in the area. If we don't help and they eventually overthrow Gaddafi on their own, then we lose an opportunity to determine/influence the direction of their new government.
    Thats where **** gets messy quick and difficult to move forward on.

    Nation building - when and where it is reasonable, to our advantage and those being helped are helping themselves. Most Arab countries do NOT fit that criteria. We shouldn't insist.

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Thats where **** gets messy quick and difficult to move forward on.

    Nation building - when and where it is reasonable, to our advantage and those being helped are helping themselves. Most Arab countries do NOT fit that criteria. We shouldn't insist.
    I agree. I'm definitely in favor of a more conservative (in the literal sense of the word) foreign policy. I think we need to let nations determine their own fates and have their own civil without our intervention. I understand that we want influence but nation-building takes a long, expensive time (when it even works) and we have other domestic problems to spend even the smallest amount of money on. The problem is, both parties are fairly similar with regards to foreign policy in this aspect.

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I agree we are (whether we like it or not) the guarantor - the question is "should we be"?
    That's not the question. What is is.

    I certainly agree with point 2, which completely negates the whole "we're there for humanitarian reasons", same as the WMD issue and humanitarian issues in Iraq were debunked.
    How does that negate the our strategic interest in spreading democracy? It does not. Nay, in fact, it is the economic driver of the importance of a political solution.

    Agree with point 3 as well, but again, the question is should we be doing this at end of a gun and have we learned nothing from Iraq OR, is this a lesson of Iraq and Iraq was a total success.
    Iraq was a pretty good success, ongoing.

    Point 4 is bunk, sorry to say. Much worse humanitarian needs have occurred all over the world which did not involve emergency UN resolutions and a quick move of military no-fly zones. "Humanitarian needs" is a red herring - and a smelly one at that.
    We wouldn't be addressing Libya militarily if Qhaddafi didn't overwhelmingly attack his people.

    These things have more than one reason, more than one justification and more than one objective. Why people want to exclude some reasons to emphasize a different reason just loses me. In fact, it is the combination of these reasons/justifications/objectives which give the situation its importance. So we have oil, refuges, humanitarian situation, misuse and practical genocide with Ghaddafi using western arms, to be seen to do that right thing in the Arab world - reputation, even - though not in the case of the US - obligations due to colonial remnants.

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    No I'm asking for facts that verify your position.
    That prior to making the first public statements that the US objected strongly to the actions being taken in Lybia the President waited until the ferry was out of Lybian waters??? I was kinda watching the news when that happened.

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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    there is no way the west is mounting up for war because there is any real benefit, besides putting our money where our mouth is and standing up for the people of Libya. the world economy is in the gutter and going into Libya now will only hurt us and europe. But i think, and the free world realizes, that Khaddafi needs to be put in his place. as long as the US isnt spearheading this i support it.
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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Not nessecarily.

    One cannot ignore that Gaddafi has openly supported terrorists in the past against the west.

    One cannot ignore that if he wins, he will again support terrorist enterprises against the west given what they have done to him. The last thing we need, is a nations resources helping a terrorist organization.
    What terrorists, I thought they were freedom fighters.
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    Re: UN authorizes no-fly zone over Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What terrorists, I thought they were freedom fighters.
    Please be frank American.

    Say what you mean please.

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