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Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

There is no contradiction whatsoever. A no fly zone is not contradictory with a position that the U.S. should not engage in strategic bombing, assassination, or other direct military intervention.

There is a stark difference defensive preemptive tactics e.g., taking out radar installations, missile batteries, etc., to safeguard enforcement of a no fly zone, and offensive strategic air strikes aimed at shifting the battlefield balance of power. If a no fly zone is pursued, and my preference is for shipments of weapons to be furnished to the anti-Gadhafi forces, it is elementary that some preemptive defensive measures to allow for enforcement would be needed. I do not believe the U.S. should cross the line and take offensive measures, be they knocking out armored columns or targeting the Gadhafis. Those are things the Libyan people must do.

The only way to enforce a no-fly zone, is to destroy Qadaffi's air assets There's no way to do that without, "direct military intervention".
 
I suspect shipping arms to the anti-Gadhafi forces might be more effective. As it has become clearer in recent days that the revoluton was not broad-based, I believe that shortcoming might actually be a more important factor than the dictatorship's use of air power in determining the outcome of the conflict. Given the risks involved, and a lack of a broad-based revolution indicates that risks of renewed violence even after the dictatorship were toppled would be very high, and lack of compelling U.S. interests, I don't believe the U.S. should get involved in offensive military action. That the Arab League, with far greater interests refuses to supply even the most minimal military assets to enforcing its no fly zone declaration, is revealing. The U.S. should not run risks that are disproportionate to its interests, simply to add substance to what is currently nothing more than rhetoric on the part of the Arab League.

Without the training an orginization that an effective military unit possesses, those weapons would be useless.

There are four elements of combat power--firepower, communication, maneuver and leadership--if one those is missing, then a unit's effectiveness is greatly diminished. Lose two of those and a unit becomes combat ineffective.
 
The only way to enforce a no-fly zone, is to destroy Qadaffi's air assets There's no way to do that without, "direct military intervention".

Not necessarily destroying ALL of his air assets, but at least eliminating his anti-air assets and rendering his air force impotent by cratering runways, etc. I agree, there's still an offensive element, it's still an act of war, and it still is direct military intervention.
 
Without the training an orginization that an effective military unit possesses, those weapons would be useless.

There are four elements of combat power--firepower, communication, maneuver and leadership--if one those is missing, then a unit's effectiveness is greatly diminished. Lose two of those and a unit becomes combat ineffective.

On top of that they need some serious firepower, it would be more than simply arming everyone with a rifle, they need anti aircraft weapons, anti tank weapons, explosives, maybe even artillery and vehicles of their own, serious stuff which not only requires training and leadership to use effective but also is very risky to put into people's hands whom you do not control. Who knows where a crate of anti tank missiles that disappears is going to end up?
 
Not necessarily destroying ALL of his air assets, but at least eliminating his anti-air assets and rendering his air force impotent by cratering runways, etc. I agree, there's still an offensive element, it's still an act of war, and it still is direct military intervention.

I think that would be a bad idea. What going to happen during the post war period if every runway in the country is unusable? It could inadvertantly create a humanitarian crisis, because of an inability to move supplies in a timely manner.

Even so, that still leaves helos that will have to be lazed and blazed.
 
I think that would be a bad idea. What going to happen during the post war period if every runway in the country is unusable? It could inadvertantly create a humanitarian crisis, because of an inability to move supplies in a timely manner.

Even so, that still leaves helos that will have to be lazed and blazed.

It's a tactic that's been discussed, i'm not sure how rapidly runways can be repaired but you have a point. I agree bout the helos.
 
On top of that they need some serious firepower, it would be more than simply arming everyone with a rifle, they need anti aircraft weapons, anti tank weapons, explosives, maybe even artillery and vehicles of their own, serious stuff which not only requires training and leadership to use effective but also is very risky to put into people's hands whom you do not control. Who knows where a crate of anti tank missiles that disappears is going to end up?

I believe that if they were well trained in light infantry tactics and had the right leadership, they could pull this off without heavy weapons and vehicles, but it would definitely cause things to drag on, possibly for years.
 
I just think, before we decide to arm the rebels...figure out who these guys are and what they want. We all know they hate Gaddafi, that's fine. But we sure as hell don't want to be arming just any dude who hates Gaddafi, we need to find out who these people are, what their post-war agenda is if they win, and what they're fighting for. That's my two cents.

not to mention apdst's great point about training and weaponry.
 
It's a tactic that's been discussed, i'm not sure how rapidly runways can be repaired but you have a point. I agree bout the helos.

My brother-n-law and I discussed Libya this weekend and he suggested detroying the runways. While I agree that it could effective ground fixed wing aircraft, I also believe that it would cause bigger problems down the road. I say, just light up the aircraft and leave the runways intact for future use.
 
I just think, before we decide to arm the rebels...figure out who these guys are and what they want. We all know they hate Gaddafi, that's fine. But we sure as hell don't want to be arming just any dude who hates Gaddafi, we need to find out who these people are, what their post-war agenda is if they win, and what they're fighting for. That's my two cents.

not to mention apdst's great point about training and weaponry.

I still say let the Euros handle it. They've been bitching about how we've been doing things; here's there big chance to show us how it's done. Perhaps the Chicoms, or the Rooskies could take on the mission. Then, we can see how all the America haters think of how they handle the situation. I'm fairly certain, they won't be pleased with their methods, or the end result.
 
I still say let the Euros handle it. They've been bitching about how we've been doing things; here's there big chance to show us how it's done. Perhaps the Chicoms, or the Rooskies could take on the mission. Then, we can see how all the America haters think of how they handle the situation. I'm fairly certain, they won't be pleased with their methods, or the end result.

Any intervention in the form of a no-fly zone will be inherently open-ended...only God knows, if we get involved, how long it's going to be in place and I guarantee if this thing drags out long enough Americans themselves will be tired of it after the initial emotional outcry. I don't think the Russians or Chinese give a ****, really, and maybe the EU and the Arab League and AU could do it if they really wanted to. I really don't think this is our piece of cake right now.
 
Any intervention in the form of a no-fly zone will be inherently open-ended...only God knows, if we get involved, how long it's going to be in place and I guarantee if this thing drags out long enough Americans themselves will be tired of it after the initial emotional outcry. I don't think the Russians or Chinese give a ****, really, and maybe the EU and the Arab League and AU could do it if they really wanted to. I really don't think this is our piece of cake right now.

Unless we're going in to take the place over, I say we stay the **** out of it and let them see how they like the lack of American intervention.
 
George Friedman hits it right on the head:

How a Libyan No-fly Zone Could Backfire

March 8, 2011 | 1550 GMT
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By George Friedman

Calls are growing for a no-fly zone over Libya, but a power or coalition of powers willing to enforce one remains elusive.

In evaluating such calls, it is useful to remember that in war, Murphy’s Law always lurks. What can go wrong will go wrong, in Libya as in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Complications to Airstrikes

It has been pointed out that a no-fly zone is not an antiseptic act. In order to protect the aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone, one must begin by suppressing enemy air defenses. This in turn poses an intelligence problem. Precisely what are Libyan air defenses and where are they located? It is possible to assert that Libya has no effective air defenses and that an SEAD (suppression of enemy air defenses) attack is therefore unnecessary. But that makes assumptions that cannot be demonstrated without testing, and the test is dangerous. At the same time, collecting definitive intelligence on air defenses is not as easy as it might appear — particularly as the opposition and thieves alike have managed to capture heavy weapons and armored vehicles, meaning that air defense assets are on the move and under uncertain control.

Therefore, a no-fly zone would begin with airstrikes on known air defense sites. But it would likely continue with sustained patrols by SEAD aircraft armed with anti-radiation missiles poised to rapidly confront any subsequent threat that pops up. Keeping those aircraft on station for an extended period of time would be necessary, along with an unknown number of strikes. It is uncertain where the radars and missiles are located, and those airstrikes would not be without error. When search radars and especially targeting radars are turned on, the response must be instantaneous, while the radar is radiating (and therefore vulnerable) and before it can engage. That means there will be no opportunity to determine whether the sites are located in residential areas or close to public facilities such as schools or hospitals.

Previous regimes, hoping to garner international support, have deliberately placed their systems near such facilities to force what the international media would consider an atrocity. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi does not seem like someone who would hesitate to cause civilian casualties for political advantage. Thus, the imposition of a no-fly zone could rapidly deteriorate into condemnations for killing civilians of those enforcing the zone ostensibly for humanitarian purposes. Indeed, attacks on air defenses could cause substantial casualties, turning a humanitarian action into one of considerable consequence in both humanitarian and political terms.

Airstrikes vs. Ground Operations

The more important question is what exactly a no-fly zone would achieve. Certainly, it would ground Gadhafi’s air force, but it would not come close to ending the fighting nor erode Gadhafi’s other substantial advantages. His forces appear to be better organized and trained than his opponents, who are politically divided and far less organized. Not long ago, Gadhafi largely was written off, but he has more than held his own — and he has held his own through the employment of ground combat forces. What remains of his air force has been used for limited harassment, so the imposition of a no-fly zone would not change the military situation on the ground. Even with a no-fly zone, Gadhafi would still be difficult for the rebels to defeat, and Gadhafi might still defeat the rebels.

The attractiveness of the no-fly zone in Iraq was that it provided the political illusion that steps were being taken, without creating substantial risks, or for that matter, actually doing substantial damage to Saddam Hussein’s control over Iraq. The no-fly zone remained in place for about 12 years without forcing change in Saddam’s policies, let alone regime change. The same is likely to be true in Libya. The no-fly zone is a low-risk action with little ability to change the military reality that creates an impression of decisive action. It does, as we argue, have a substantial downside, in that it entails costs and risks — including a high likelihood of at least some civilian casualties — without clear benefit or meaningful impact. The magnitude of the potential civilian toll is unknown, but its likelihood, oddly, is not in the hands of those imposing the no-fly zone, but in the hands of Gadhafi. Add to this human error and other failures inherent in war, and the outcome becomes unclear.

A more significant action would be intervention on the ground, an invasion of Libya designed to destroy Gadhafi’s military and force regime change. This would require a substantial force — and it should be remembered from Iraq that it would require a substantial occupation force to stabilize and build a new regime to govern Libya. Unlike in Egypt, Gadhafi is the regime, and sectarian elements that have been kept in check under his regime already are coming to the fore. The ability of the country to provide and administer basic government functions is also unknown. And it must also be borne in mind that Gadhafi clearly has substantial support as well as opposition. His supporters will not go without a fight and could choose to wage some form of post-invasion resistance, as in Iraq. Thus, while the initial costs in terms of casualties might be low, the long-term costs might be much higher.

It should also be remembered that the same international community that condemned Saddam Hussein as a brutal dictator quite easily turned to condemn the United States both for deposing him and for the steps its military took in trying to deal with the subsequent insurgency. It is not difficult to imagine a situation where there is extended Libyan resistance to the occupying force followed by international condemnation of the counterinsurgency effort.

Having toppled a regime, it is difficult to simply leave. The idea that this would be a quick, surgical and short-term invasion is certainly one scenario, but it is neither certain nor even the most likely scenario. In the same sense, the casualties caused by the no-fly zone would be unknown. The difference is that while a no-fly zone could be terminated easily, it is unlikely that it would have any impact on ground operations. An invasion would certainly have a substantial impact but would not be terminable.

Stopping a civil war is viable if it can be done without increasing casualties beyond what they might be if the war ran its course. The no-fly zone likely does that, without ending the civil war. If properly resourced, the invasion option could end the civil war, but it opens the door to extended low-intensity conflict.

The National Interest

It is difficult to perceive the U.S. national interest in Libya. The interests of some European countries, like Italy, are more substantial, but it is not clear that they are prepared to undertake the burden without the United States.

We would argue that war as a humanitarian action should be undertaken only with the clear understanding that in the end it might cause more suffering than the civil war. It should also be undertaken with the clear understanding that the inhabitants might prove less than grateful, and the rest of the world would not applaud nearly as much as might be liked — and would be faster to condemn the occupier when things went wrong. Indeed, the recently formed opposition council based out of Benghazi — the same group that is leading the calls from eastern Libya for foreign airstrikes against Gadhafi’s air force — has explicitly warned against any military intervention involving troops on the ground.

In the end, the use of force must have the national interest in mind. And the historical record of armed humanitarian interventions is mixed at best.
 
In part, Mr. Friedman writes, "It is difficult to perceive the U.S. national interest in Libya." I agree. That is why I oppose direct offensive military operations. The national interest isn't sufficient. That it also is clear that the revolution is not broad-based further adds to the arguments against such military operations. While U.S. communications strategy has been clumsy at times on Libya, I believe the U.S. failure to send military forces into Libya has been the correct strategy.
 
Without the training an orginization that an effective military unit possesses, those weapons would be useless.

There are four elements of combat power--firepower, communication, maneuver and leadership--if one those is missing, then a unit's effectiveness is greatly diminished. Lose two of those and a unit becomes combat ineffective.

I've previously addressed that issue. I'm well aware that there has to training. There are ways to provide it without sending perhaps even a handful of trainers to Libya on a very temporary basis. One need only look back to how it was handled in Afghanistan during the 1980s. And no, there were not hundreds, or more U.S. trainers there. Instead, many Afghans were flown out of the country, trained offshore, then returned to become trainers there. So, there is not a one-size fits all method for accomplishing training.

In any case, as the revolution is not broadly supported by Libya's people and tribal leaders--it is largely a regional phenomenon with only localized tribal support--I do not believe the U.S. should wage the anti-Gadhafi forces' fighting for them. There should be no offensive military action, no targeted strikes on Mr. Gadhafi or his sons, no attacks on Mr. Gadhafi's armored columns, fighter jets, etc.
 
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The only way to enforce a no-fly zone, is to destroy Qadaffi's air assets There's no way to do that without, "direct military intervention".

Incorrect.

As noted previously, there is a fundamental difference between preemptive defensive tactics and offensive ones. Destroying only what's required to implement a NFZ is an example of the former. Targeting all of Libya's air assets (from jets to runways to airports) would be an example of the latter.

NFZ implementation and enforcement requires the destruction of air defenses, radar installations, but not necessarily jets or other air assets, so long as those jets are not used. If one is looking for a historical reference, one need only refer back to the NFZ in Iraq. Then, Iraq's planes were generally only targeted if they violated the NFZ. Even then, almost always the confrontations ended non-violently. If enforcement of a NFZ truly required the destruction of all air assets, then it would have been done in Iraq. It wasn't, and the NFZs were remarkable successful.
 
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Incorrect.

As noted previously, there is a fundamental difference between preemptive defensive tactics and offensive ones. Destroying only what's required to implement a NFZ is an example of the former. Targeting all of Libya's air assets (from jets to runways to airports) would be an example of the latter.

NFZ implementation and enforcement requires the destruction of air defenses, radar installations, but not necessarily[/i]jets or other air assets, so long as those jets are not used. If one is looking for a historical reference, one need only refer back to the NFZ in Iraq. Then, Iraq's planes were generally only targeted if they violated the NFZ. Even then, almost always the confrontations ended non-violently. If enforcement of a NFZ truly required the destruction of all air assets, then it would have been done in Iraq. It wasn't, and the NFZs were remarkable successful.


What were they successful at? Granted they certainly were executed successfully in the sense that the operation itself went fairly smoothly, but what did it actually accomplish and change or prevent from happening what would have happened if there was no NFZ
 
What were they successful at? Granted they certainly were executed successfully in the sense that the operation itself went fairly smoothly, but what did it actually accomplish and change or prevent from happening what would have happened if there was no NFZ

They were successful in fulfilling the mandate that allowed northern and southern Iraq's people (Kurds in the north and some of the Shia in the south) to be free from regular attack from the air by the Hussein dictatorship's forces. The Kurdish part of the country actually used the security that had been created to build a fairly prosperous regional economy and some relatively effective self-governing institutions.
 
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There's no such thing as a preemptive defensive attack, that's an oxymoron. Just my two cents.
 
Incorrect.

As noted previously, there is a fundamental difference between preemptive defensive tactics and offensive ones. Destroying only what's required to implement a NFZ is an example of the former. Targeting all of Libya's air assets (from jets to runways to airports) would be an example of the latter.

NFZ implementation and enforcement requires the destruction of air defenses, radar installations, but not necessarily jets or other air assets, so long as those jets are not used. If one is looking for a historical reference, one need only refer back to the NFZ in Iraq. Then, Iraq's planes were generally only targeted if they violated the NFZ. Even then, almost always the confrontations ended non-violently. If enforcement of a NFZ truly required the destruction of all air assets, then it would have been done in Iraq. It wasn't, and the NFZs were remarkable successful.

Tactics are tactics and engaging the enemy is engaging the enemy. Launching ordnance is, "direct military intervention". You're going to have to destroy some aircraft, period.

If one is looking for a historical reference, one need only refer back to the NFZ in Iraq. Then, Iraq's planes were generally only targeted if they violated the NFZ.

Iraq's air had been destroyed during Desert Storm. There were two phases there, detruction of air assets, then the enforcement of a no fly zone. Those two phases will have to implemented here, as well.
 
There's no such thing as a preemptive defensive attack, that's an oxymoron. Just my two cents.

A preemptive defensive tacticis one that is aimed at neutralizing a threat to one's position before it unfolds. Its objectives do not extend beyond neutralizing threats against which one would have to defend in order to carry out a mandate. Surprise attacks, which also occur before one has been attacked, are typically aimed at gaining some advantage or leading to some outcome that extends beyond self-defense. The second war against Iraq arguably fell into the latter category. It was launched with the aim, among others, of toppling Saddam Hussein.
 
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A preemptive defensive tacticis one that is aimed at neutralizing a threat to one's position before it unfolds. Its objectives do not extend beyond neutralizing threats against which one would have to defend in order to carry out a mandate. Surprise attacks, which also occur before one has been attacked, are typically aimed at gaining some advantage or leading to some outcome that extends beyond self-defense. The second war against Iraq arguably fell into the latter category. It was launched with the aim, among others, of toppling Saddam Hussein.

I don't disagree with anything you said except for describing preemptive or preventive actions as "defensive," but again that's just my personal opinion. Both preemptive and preventive acts are inherenty offensive in nature, but I guess this is becoming a semantic argument more than anything else.
 
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6.) It would be nice to have some adult leadership in the US and UN right now. This is exactly what the UN was designed to mediate. They have near zero credibility right now.


The UN was designed to preserve "stability."

Libya isn't threatening its neighbors. Libya is soveriegn. And Libya's leader is merely slaughtering his own people within his own border. By doing nothing, "stability" is just fine.

What exactly is the UN failing here? Why do people always expect the UN to do more than what it is supposed to do? We are talking about an international organization full of national leaders and diplomats who don't even represent their own people. Do people really expect the oppressive governments of China or Russia (two security council members) to act on behalf of suffering people elsewhere? Do we expect any of the numerous dictators within the UN to compromise their positions by demanding that the free world interfere with the soveriegn right of others to oppress their people?

I have stated this over and over and over. The UN, like the League of Nations, is beneath the great nations of the West. It has its uses, by they are limited. The UN will never stand to deal with dictators. It will never act without America urging it to. And it will never rise to the moral code that nations in the free world preach about. But...still we "great nations" use the UN rules and international laws that allow us to be apathetic and lazy, to do nothing. We pretend that we have high moral code because we adhere to immoral international laws. We will dismiss the fact that soveriegnty is a con game meant to protect kings, kaisers, and tzars and use these outdated international codes and laws to preserve the brutality and oppression of present day dictators.

President Clinton shoved the useless UN to the side and led Europe's reluctant leaders into Bosnia and Kosovo. No American President pushed the UN to declare anything about the genocides of Rwanda and Sudan in the 90s and therefore the UN did nothing. After 12 years of a UN starvation program in Iraq, President Bush finally shoved the UN to the side to finally deal with Saddam Hussein. President Bush and Blair urged the UN to deal with Sudan's genocide in the last decade, but the UN contribution to this meant denying the ingernational court their arrest warrant for Bashir. Today, with Libya, we pretend that we are shocked of the UN's apathy or its inability to transcend exactly what it was made for?

The League of Nations was created in the wake of World War I and Europeans managed to wreck it before the start of World War II. The League of Nations ran its course during a phase in global history. The United Nations was created in the wake of World War II. It was created in the beginning of the Cold War. The Cold War ended in 1991. Since 1991, everything an American boot has been is a legacy of European colonialism and the Cold War prescription of stability. The UN is not an organization that stands for anything other than the past and the dying out dictators and corrupt governments of the world have managed to wreck it.

I propose a new organization of world governments be created that base around democracy. It's time for the rest to catch up to our standards instead of us always settling for the bare minimum they serve up. If the part of the greater part of the UN body that celebrates the oppression and abuse of their own people have their way (and they usually do), every Libyan would go ahead and die tomorrow while the free and supposed higher morality West simply sits back and preaches....but obeys their wretched international laws of apathy.
 
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