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Thread: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

  1. #101
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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I was born in 1949 and lived through this time. You have no idea what you are talking about.
    Your inability to refute my points is AMAZING..

    How can a political solution work when the left takes our ability to respond militarily away from us (by pulling out) to defend the politcal solution, obviuosly once we are out we can't go back in.... that was what happened in Vietnam! This is what Von Clauswitz meant, that politics is only as forceful and meaningful as the ability to back up your agreements and make them stick.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Again - We didn't lose **** in Vietnam. We left in 73 - Vietnam fell in 75. They fought good until the libs yanked the rug out from under them. Look for Foreign Assistance Act of 1974.
    Heads are exploding all over Libbo Land.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Your inability to refute my points is AMAZING..

    How can a political solution work when the left takes our ability to respond militarily away from us (by pulling out) to defend the politcal solution, obviuosly once we are out we can't go back in.... that was what happened in Vietnam! This is what Von Clauswitz meant, that politics is only as forceful and meaningful as the ability to back up your agreements and make them stick.
    when were you born?

    Do you even know who was President of the USA during this time?
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-17-11 at 10:23 PM.
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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    The U.N. has just voted for implementing a no-fly zone in Libya.
    So what? Obama can't do a damn thing, cause he doesn't have an official Declaration of War.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I was born in 1949 and lived through this time. You have no idea what you are talking about.
    Well tell us about your tour in Vietnam.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Your inability to refute my points is AMAZING..

    How can a political solution work when the left takes our ability to respond militarily away from us (by pulling out) to defend the politcal solution, obviuosly once we are out we can't go back in.... that was what happened in Vietnam! This is what Von Clauswitz meant, that politics is only as forceful and meaningful as the ability to back up your agreements and make them stick.
    You attack THE LEFT and you attack LIBERALS and blame them for the loss of Viet Nam. You sound like someone who was not even alive to live through a decade of daily Viet Nam news and events. I also suspect everything you know about Viet Nam came from reading about it long after the war was ended.

    The LEFT and LIBERALS were not in charge of the decisions which lost Viet Nam. That came from a Republican President Richard Nixon. His policy was called Vietnamization.

    Vietnamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Vietnamization was a policy of the Richard M. Nixon administration, as a result of Tet, to "expand, equip, and train South Vietnam's forces and assign to them an ever-increasing combat role, at the same time steadily reducing the number of U.S. combat troops."[2] This referred to U.S. combat troops specifically in the ground combat role, but did not reject combat by U.S. air forces, as well as the support to South Vietnam, consistent with the policies of U.S. foreign military assistance organizations. The mistrust of the government that had begun after Tet and worsened with the release of news about US soldiers massacring civilians at My Lai (1969), the invasion of Cambodia (1970), and the leaking of the Pentagon Papers (1971). After Nixon's election in 1968, this became the policy of the United States. While it was a deliberate policy, the name was rather accidental. At a January 28, 1969, meeting of the National Security Council, GEN Andrew Goodpaster, deputy to GEN Creighton Abrams, commander of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, said the Army of the Republic of Viet Nam (ARVN) had been steadily improving, and the point at which the war could be "de-Americanized" was close. Melvin Laird, the Secretary of Defense, agreed with the point, but not with the language: "what we need is a term like 'Vietnamizing' to put the emphasis on the right issues." Nixon immediately liked Laird's word.[3]
    Vietnamization fit into the broader Nixon Administration detente policy, in which the United States no longer regarded its fundamental strategy as containment of Communism, but a cooperative world order in which Nixon and his chief adviser Henry Kissinger were basically "realists" in world affairs, interested in the broader constellation of forces, and the biggest powers.[4] Nixon had ordered Kissinger to negotiate basic U.S.-Soviet policy between the heads of state via Kissinger and Dobrynin, with the agreements then transferred to diplomats for implementation. In like manner, Nixon opened high-level contact with China. U.S. relations with the Soviet Union and China were seen as far more important than the fate of South Vietnam, which certainly did not preclude South Vietnam maintaining its own independence.
    Nixon said Vietnamization had two components. The first was "strengthening the armed force of the South Vietnamese in numbers, equipment, leadership and combat skills. The second component is the extension of the pacification program in South Vietnam." The first was achievable, but it would take time. For the U.S., it was trivial to have a U.S. helicopter pilot fly in support, but helicopter operations were too much part of ground operations to involve U.S. personnel. As observed by LTG Dave Palmer, to qualify an ARVN candidate for U.S. helicopter school, he first needed months of English language training to be able to follow the months-long training, and then additional field time to become proficient. In other words, adding new capabilities to the ARVN would often take two or more years.[5] Palmer did not disagree that the first component, given time and resources, was achievable. "Pacification, the second component, presented the real challenge...it was benevolent government action in areas where the government should always have been benevolently active...doing both was necessary if Vietnamization were to work."
    there is plenty more in the article.


    It was a long and deliberate process which took years to carry out and was the intentional drawdown of US forces in favor of Viet Namese forces to carry out the war.
    The LEFT had precious little to do with its adoption or its implementation.

    The facts are clear and well remembered for many who lived during this time. When US troops left the nation at the orders of our Republican Commanded In Chief Richard Nixon, the Northern forces soon won over the nation and unified it. The side that the USA had fought for lost.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-18-11 at 07:07 AM.
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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You attack THE LEFT and you attack LIBERALS and blame them for the loss of Viet Nam. You sound like someone who was not even alive to live through a decade of daily Viet Nam news and events. I also suspect everything you know about Viet Nam came from reading about it long after the war was ended.

    The LEFT and LIBERALS were not in charge of the decisions which lost Viet Nam. That came from a Republican President Richard Nixon. His policy was called Vietnamization.

    Vietnamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.



    there is plenty more in the article.


    It was a long and deliberate process which took years to carry out and was the intentional drawdown of US forces in favor of Viet Namese forces to carry out the war.
    The LEFT had precious little to do with its adoption or its implementation.

    The facts are clear and well remembered for many who lived during this time. When US troops left the nation at the orders of our Republican Commanded In Chief Richard Nixon, the Northern forces soon won over the nation and unified it. The side that the USA had fought for lost.
    Wikipedia....my arse lol

    Go back to school and read up.

    What really happened in Vietnam.

    1 - The U.S.' stated purpose was to eliminate the "insurgent" communist force in South Vietnam. That means eliminating the Viet Minh/Cong as an effective force in S. Vietnam. The Tet offensive of 1968 was a political victory for the Viet Cong, but a military disaster. Prior to Tet, most of the combat in S. Vietnam was conducted by the S. Vietnamese Viet Cong. Tet virtually wiped them out and the main war effort was then conducted by the North Vietnamese Army (NVA).

    2 - When the U.S. pulled out in 1973, the Viet Cong were virtually non-existent and the NVA had been beaten back across the border. Militarily, the war had been won.

    3 - In March 1975, the NVA invaded S. Vietnam in a conventional invasion, not an internal communist revolution. The invasion force had more tanks than Hitler used to invade Russia in 1941. The NVA was the 5th largest army in the world at that time. We had promised S. Vietnam that in the event of a N. Vietnamese invasion, we would use U.S. Airpower to support them. But with Nixon's resignation in August 1974 and anti-war U.S. sentiment, we did nothing to help them.

    4 - South Vietnam was conquered in a conventional invasion by North Vietnam 23 months after the last American was killed in Vietnam and over 2 years after everyone but a few advisors had been withdrawn.

    We lost 50,000 Americans in Vietnam and approximately 225,000 ARVN troops. NVA/VC dead were approximately 1,100,000 (as reported by NV). We killed/annihilated them at a rate of 4:1 - 5:1

    Militarily, we kicked their ****ing asses

    Plain and simple

    Politically, they beat us at every turn. Their will to continue far exceeded our own and their use of propaganda made us look like amateurs. Their dedication eventually brought them political victory, but militarily, it was ineffective.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You attack THE LEFT and you attack LIBERALS and blame them for the loss of Viet Nam. You sound like someone who was not even alive to live through a decade of daily Viet Nam news and events. I also suspect everything you know about Viet Nam came from reading about it long after the war was ended.

    The LEFT and LIBERALS were not in charge of the decisions which lost Viet Nam. That came from a Republican President Richard Nixon. His policy was called Vietnamization.

    Vietnamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.



    there is plenty more in the article.


    It was a long and deliberate process which took years to carry out and was the intentional drawdown of US forces in favor of Viet Namese forces to carry out the war.
    The LEFT had precious little to do with its adoption or its implementation.

    The facts are clear and well remembered for many who lived during this time. When US troops left the nation at the orders of our Republican Commanded In Chief Richard Nixon, the Northern forces soon won over the nation and unified it. The side that the USA had fought for lost.
    Are you actually saying that the Left wanted to stay in Vietnam and win the war and didn't want American troops to leave Vietnam?

    "Hey, Hey, LBJ. How many kids did you kill today"

  9. #109
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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    Your so-called "disease of the human spirit" is most accurately applied to the fundamentalist Islamists. The ever-warring Shia and Sunni factions at each others throats over Q'ran interpretation. So you would have us do what? Insert ourselves in those Middle East nations to show them the way by enabling discourse. By sending agronomists there to teach them. By sending teachers in to replace the madras schools. Give me a break. Your high-minded commentary provides no practical solutions. The indigenous peoples have to have the courage to rise up and however possible reject the notion of totalitarian religious states. We cannot pay the blood bounty to do that for them. This has been ongoing back into the Ottoman Empire and will continue until those very people reject it. So now we shall see, with all the current turmoil, whether regimes that fall are replaced by a worse fate, the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood and equivalent interests or a secular uprising of the people to take the first step towards some form of democratization. We have no business inserting ourselves in the middle.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    I'm assuming that you actually want to learn something here. First of all, my "so called" disease of the human spirit is well documented amongst social and religious experts. And second, you are ignorant as to what has been going on. You think bombs over Baghdad or struggling to build a solid Afghani government is our only effort? You want practical solutions? You actually think 19 years in the Marine Corps and facing this enemy since Somalia that I don't know my business? I've posted this material before for others who fancy malicious opinions. First understand the basics.......

    1) Root Cause - The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna and the vast majority of terrorists are members, however most Radicals are not. The majority of Islamic Radicals are "the sea from which the terrorists swim" and are revered. The cancer of Radical Islam grows where socio-economic conditions are poor; governments are repressive and unable to provide essential social services, such as providing adequate oversight of their educational system….or have allowed / sanctioned Radical Islamic curricula. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood. Frustrated by the complete inability to exert any discernible degree of control over their immediate circumstances, frustrated adherents of Radical Islam, goaded by Radical Islamic Clerics, will resort to terrorism as the only avenue to effect religious, social, political, and economic change.

    2) Short Term Solution - Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time.

    3) Long Term Solution - Thus, when dealing with a culture in which only faith and family matter to our enemies, we insist on making war on governments and negotiating with political organizations that are no more than mobs with diplomatic representation. When doing this, we merely punch thin air. Since 9/11 we have been active in far more locations than just Iraq and Afghanistan at every level. Note...Some of these are active operations and some are general sentiments of the intel/military community.

    a - Acknowledge the threat posed by Radical Islam. (This is something the lot of the civilian world is clueless about)

    b - We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so and often.

    c - Support the moderate voices (Directly, but mostly indirectly). (This is something we have been failing at since Mubarak.)

    d - Focus our efforts on the long term enemy = the creation of more Radical Islamists.

    e - Garner worldwide support for this effort…..and at least engage in the IO war more aggressively. Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

    f - Designate DOS (Department of State) as lead agency against countering Radical Islam.

    g - Following recognition of the threat – fund the programs necessary to counter it.

    h - Reorganize foreign assistance funding and efforts creating DOS “Regional Directors” that actually control assets = Reorganize DOS along Geographical vice Functional Lines (much like DoD Combatant CDRs).

    i - Review Current Foreign Policy Focusing on Taking the Political Ammunition Away From the Radical Extremists.

    j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian and Indian / Pakistani disputes.

    k - We must succeed in both Afghanistan and Iraq….and ensure these are perceived as successes in the Muslim world. Iraq is a success as can be seen today across the region. Afghanistan will be a success in another couple years if nothing impedes Marine Corps progress.

    l - Counter Radical Islamic Media = Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

    m - Reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs that were cut following the end of the Cold War.

    n - Give voice to moderate Islamic leaders (Directly, but mostly indirectly).

    o - Support programs dedicated to providing educational reform in threatened countries. (The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen, described royal expenditures on "education" as "astronomical." (Mar 2002) They built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. These were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia. None in the Middle East.) In other words, we need to support true education throughout the region.

    p - Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

    q - AT HOME = Constitutional / Legal Review of activities surrounding fundamentalist religions that pose a domestic threat, – we face a new threat and our legal system is ill equipped to handle it. (Many Americans would rather recognize their freedom to preach hate and spit venom above protecting their own asses from the repercussions of it.)


    More problems in the MENA Region....

    - The populations within the ME over the next 25 years…
    Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
    Jordan’s by 67%
    Syria’s by 58%
    Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
    Pakistan’s by 69%, and
    Israel’s by 39%

    - Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: MENA region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

    - Economic doldrums / disaster: Regional unemployment for ages 15-35 = 40%…and growing. ….mostly males….who can’t afford to get married……...

    - No known solutions to these problems, save one = Jihad.

    Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims will look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US." Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our sons and daughters will be fighting another, protracted fight. Thus far, the Muslim people are screaming out for change andsupport. Thus far, President Obama is refusing to allow us to take responsibility for our Cold War part in this mess. Like so many in Washington they are clueless as to the problems that facilitate the Al-Quedas, Talibans, Hezbollahs, PLOs, Muslim Brotherhoods, 9/11s, Cole bombings, Beirut bombings, Madrid, London, and Bali bombings, etc. It makes addressing this situation even harder for the troop that has to go and emerse himself in it.

    Unfortunately you are decades too late to be complaining that it's not our business. The moment we supported the dictator that leaned our way during the Cold War we set them back. We facilitated some of this mess. We don't get to pretend that we have no business here. We don't get to pretend that after starving out Iraqis and ignoring their rebellious cries throughout the 90s under the UN that we had no business. We don't get to pretend that after arming and organizng religious monsters against the Soviets in Afghanisgtan and then leaving them to start civil war for a decade and emerging as the Taliban that we have no business. We don't get to pretend that supporting the House of Saud for our oil leaves us with no responsibility. We don't get to pretend that after struggling to orhcestare peace between Israel and Palestine that we have no business. Globalization has a price too many prefer not to see.

    And my "high-minded commentary" isn't high minded when you consider my education and experience. I simply base my opinions and conclusions on more than headlines and baseless malicious criticisms. As you can see, I'm more than just the average dip**** who loses him or herself in simplistic black and white ignorance and then assumes that his or her opinion matters. Despite 16,000 posts of talking about this subject and years of the Middle East proving my accuracy, I would think some of you people would stop replying to me with the "nu-uhs" and assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you want to understand what generally will work, you have to understand the past and this culture. Simply dismissing them does nothing. I remind you (if you didnlt already know) that we had done nothing to them prior to the Cold War kick off and still Saayid Qutb declared us the enemy of God in the 1950s. I believe in the "Clash of Civilizations" but I believe that it doesn't have to be as violent or confusing as some assume.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-18-11 at 01:52 PM.

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    Re: Libyan rebels urge west to assassinate Gaddafi as his forces near Benghazi

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So what? Obama can't do a damn thing, cause he doesn't have an official Declaration of War.
    The President of the United States has the Marine Corps. Marine Expeditionary Units (4 Naval ships with a submarine tag along) are positioned around the globe for emergency cases. And it only takes the President to declare one. There was no Declaration of War to send Marines into Beirut, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, etc. He doesn't need a Declaration of War to send in an entire Battalion (reinforced with armor, air, and logistics) with a snap of a finger. A MEU just so happens to be sitting right off the coast.

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