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Thread: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I agree, go after the employers, but I also agree with the AZ law. It's my understanding that employers, police, welfare agencies, etc., can all access .gov data bases to verify social security and legal green card numbers.

    One of the reasons I support AZ's efforts is that the feds are being bribed by corporate America to ignore enforcement of immigration laws, and that leads to chaos in states where illegal immigration is a big problem. Illegals in California cost over 20 billion per year in medical, welfare, education costs, etc., and what's more it's illegal for schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and law enforcement to even ask about a person's immigration status. So in effect, we have immigration laws (like every other country) but we are being prevented from implementing or enforcing them for political reasons... the republicans want cheap labor, the democrats want more votes. And both parties are willing to ignore the hardships on citizens and legal residents in order to get them.
    I would agree with it if the racial profiling is removed.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Of course other laws define what reasonable suspicion is. A DUI? Erratic driving, failure to pass that walking test, . A homicide? Driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, etc. Reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch. So what is reasonable suspicion for asking for a person's immigration status? That's what this law doesn't define.
    Show me one DUI statute that defines reasonable suspicion. I'll save you some time, none do. Those things you mention are the "articulable facts" that an officer will have to explain to a court to justify his detention. To believe what you're contending, a homicide law would read something like this, "Murder is intentionally causing the death of another person. Reasonable Suspicion to prove murder shall be defined as; driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, and on and on" LOL That's ridiculous.


    You've shown nothing. You have claimed that the standard for reasonable suspicion has been raised up for this law when no standard for reasonable suspicion has been set at all. The law as it stands would allow reasonable suspicion to be simply whatever a police officer thinks it is. So again I ask, what does the Arizona law define reasonable suspicion of being in the country as?
    No, it is what the court is willing to say it is. As I said above, an officer will need to justify his stop and subsequent arrest to the court. This is not magic. It's not even that complicated, if you're not steadfastly committed to believing the wrong thing that is.
    Last edited by X Factor; 03-14-11 at 12:30 AM.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would agree with it if the racial profiling is removed.
    Can you imagine if we created a law demanding that police officers ask whether a person is a serial killer or not? Now imagine there is no standard of reasonable suspicion for being a serial killer defined within this law. Obviously white males between the ages of 20-55 will the most targetted. 90% of serial killers are males. White males are more likely to be serial killers(84%). So then what would "reasonable suspicion" be for such a law? Being white and driving in a white neighborhood (88% of serial killer victims are white). The Arizona law is the exact same. It's a law which given the statistics of the group in question is necessarily going to fall under racial profiling.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would agree with it if the racial profiling is removed.
    Good, you're in luck.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Show me one DUI statute that defines reasonable suspicion.
    http://www.sentencing.utah.gov/Prose...l/chapter6.pdf

    In order to stop a motor vehicle, an officer must have reasonable
    articulable suspicion that a public offense is occurring or has occurred.
    There are many legitimate reasons for such a stop which include, but are
    not limited to suspicious activity, traffic violations, and equipment
    violations. The objective reasoning for the stop is the only relevant issue
    for review. The subjective mind set of the office is irrelevant. Pursuant to
    Whren vs. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996), the reasonableness of
    a traffic stop does not depend upon the subjective intentions of an officer.

    In other words, the days of arguing whether a traffic stop was a pretext for
    other, unstated, reasons are history. See also State v. Lopez

    [I]n justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to
    point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with
    rational inferences from those facts
    , reasonable warrant intrusion.

    6.3.1 - Traffic and equipment violations:

    Observation of a traffic law violation is perhaps the most defensible reason
    for stopping a vehicle. So long as the officer can articulate the observation
    of the violation, a court should hold the stop to be lawful.


    6.3.2. - Suspicious Driving:

    In addition to patently obvious traffic law violations, officers may obtain
    reasonable suspicion by observing other suspicious driving activities that
    do not, by themselves, constitute and offense. The National Highway
    Safety Administration identifies a number of clues which may be used in
    order to form reasonable suspicion for a stop. These include:
    Clues related to problems in maintaining proper lane position:
    Weaving within a lane;
    Weaving across lane lines;
    Straddling a lane line;
    Drifting;
    Swerving;
    Almost striking a vehicle or other object; and
    Turning with a wide radius, or drifting during a curve.
    You're out of your mind if you think that DUI statutes don't define reasonable suspicion.

    I'll save you some time, none do. Those things you mention are the "articulable facts" that an officer will have to explain to a court to justify his detention. To believe what you're contending, a homicide law would read something like this, "Murder is intentionally causing the death of another person. Reasonable Suspicion to prove murder shall be defined as; driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, and on and on" LOL That's ridiculous.
    When you start off not knowing what you're talking about, you end up with posts like the one you just made.

    No, it is what the court is willing to say it is. As I said above, an officer will need to justify his stop and subsequent arrest to the court. This is not magic. It's not even that complicated if you're not steadfastly committed to believing the wrong thing that is.
    Lmao, more nonsense.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    http://www.sentencing.utah.gov/Prose...l/chapter6.pdf



    You're out of your mind if you think that DUI statutes don't define reasonable suspicion.



    When you start off not knowing what you're talking about, you end up with posts like the one you just made.



    Lmao, more nonsense.
    You're so clueless, you don't even know what you're quoting. That's a "Prosecution Manuel". It contains the statute, sure, but also case law, examples and commentary which are not part of the statute. Good grief. I'll see if I can find the actual statute, and only the statute, for the very same state you use in your link so we can compare.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Ok, this is the actual DWI statute for Utah (which is the state you linked to)

    Title 41 Motor Vehicles
    Chapter 6a Traffic Code
    Section 502 Driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or a combination of both or with specified or unsafe blood alcohol concentration -- Reporting of convictions.

    **** 41-6a-502.** Driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or a combination of both or with specified or unsafe blood alcohol concentration -- Reporting of convictions.
    **** (1) A person may not operate or be in actual physical control of a vehicle within this state if the person:
    **** (a) has sufficient alcohol in the person's body that a subsequent chemical test shows that the person has a blood or breath alcohol concentration of .08 grams or greater at the time of the test;
    **** (b) is under the influence of alcohol, any drug, or the combined influence of alcohol and any drug to a degree that renders the person incapable of safely operating a vehicle; or
    **** (c) has a blood or breath alcohol concentration of .08 grams or greater at the time of operation or actual physical control.
    **** (2) Alcohol concentration in the blood shall be based upon grams of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood, and alcohol concentration in the breath shall be based upon grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.
    **** (3) A violation of this section includes a violation under a local ordinance similar to this section adopted in compliance with Section 41-6a-510.
    **** (4) Beginning on July 1, 2012, a court shall, monthly, send to the Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing, created in Section 58-1-103, a report containing the name, case number, and, if known, the date of birth of each person convicted during the preceding month of a violation of this section for whom there is evidence that the person was driving under the influence, in whole or in part, of a prescribed controlled substance.
    Amended by Chapter 109, 2010 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 41_06a050200.ZIP 2,448 Bytes
    << Previous Section (41-6a-501) Next Section (41-6a-502.5) >>
    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_06a050200.htm

    Now, where is the list of things that defines reasonable suspicion?
    Last edited by X Factor; 03-14-11 at 12:53 AM.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    I don't believe that the DWI statutes should have anything to do with the conversation here. I can tell you first hand that you are stopped for DWI because you exhibited behavior that warranted suspicion. In my case, I was driving head up ass, and cannot argue that there wasn't reasonable suspicion. On the other hand, stopping people because they look like a Mexican clearly has nothing to do with reasonable suspicion.

    BTW, only 5 and half months more, and I am off probation for my DWI. When it comes to driving after having a few, don't do it, folks. You will not like the consequences if you get caught. Take it from me. LOL.
    Last edited by danarhea; 03-14-11 at 03:15 AM.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Simple way of enforcing Az's new law....make the question a standard question asked of everyone. Of course then people will just holler about nazism etc etc.

    But hey, as Abraham Lincoln once said...

    "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time" ~Abraham Lincoln~
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I don't believe that the DWI statutes should have anything to do with the conversation here. I can tell you first hand that you are stopped for DWI because you exhibited behavior that warranted suspicion. In my case, I was driving head up ass, and cannot argue that there wasn't reasonable suspicion. On the other hand, stopping people because they look like a Mexican clearly has nothing to do with reasonable suspicion.
    The DWI statutes were just an example that no statute defines or lists out what reasonable suspicion is, so to criticize the AZ law for not doing so either is a red herring. Reasonable suspicion is a case law creation applied to every detention. I absolutely agree that pulling someone over for looking Mexican would not meet the reasonable suspicion standard, in fact, the AZ law expressly forbids taking race, ethnicity or place of origin into consideration. That means, those "articulable facts" will have to be justified without using race as a factor. Once again, the only way to argue the unconstitutionality of this law is by assuming the enforcement of it (the alleged profiling) will violate the constitution, and that's not something we were ever allowed to determine, so an assumption is all it's ever been.

    BTW, only 5 and half months more, and I am off probation for my DWI. When it comes to driving after having a few, don't do it, folks. You will not like the consequences if you get caught. Take it from me. LOL.
    Hang in there.
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