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Thread: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Did you actually read the thread? More proof of your trolling. She asked why asking for DL fell outside the protections of the 4th. I explained that it's not unreasonable to ask for DL if the person is driving. Keep up troll.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Again, and I'm typing slowly, no law on the books now define reasonable suspicion, and all laws require some degree of discretion and judgment from law enforcement. Stop pretending all this applies only to this law.
    This is how ignorant you are. Reasonable doubt isn't based on personal discretion. Reasonable suspicion is based on articulable facts. What facts would you use in order to determine that there are grounds to ask a person whether they are illegal or not? Say they provide a legal driver's license but can't speak English properly. Then what? Do you tell them to go on their way? Come up with as many ways as you want. The Arizona law has none of those.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-13-11 at 11:50 PM.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I call it trolling because you still have not a clue as to what it is people are discussing. Whether reasonable suspicion is defined on Wikipedia or not is irrelevant. Reasonable suspicion as discussed in the bill is not defined within the bill. It's only been defined by training departments etc. Which is why everyone who is in opposition to this bill is saying that it ultimately will lead to racial profiling. The fact that you still don't know what the actual argument is is indicative of just how stupid most supporters of this law are.
    For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does? See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is how ignorant you are. Reasonable doubt isn't based on personal discretion. Reasonable suspicion is based on articulable facts. What facts would you use in order to determine that there are grounds to ask a person whether they are illegal or not? Say they provide a legal driver's license but can't speak English properly. Then what? Do you tell them to go on their way? Come up with as many ways as you want. The Arizona law has none of those.
    What? Reasonable doubt is the legal standard at trial. Plus, I've already said if the driver provides a valid license that's the end of the inquiry. Even the law spells that out and gives a whole list of documents that end the inquiry, a DL being one of those.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does? See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.
    Exactly!!!
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Exactly!!!
    Thanks, Mags. Beginning to wonder if I was typing in Latin or something.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    The problem with this is the government when it decides to actually check the documentation is so slow about it that illegals can avoid them. I have known a couple that simply get a new job about once a year knowing full well that it typically takes the government longer then that to catch up with their current place of employment. By job hopping they negate the governments effort. Now if employers could check they would likely never get the job.
    This is why we would require employers to turn in copies of I-9 forms along with their employment tax returns. It would streamline the system, by enabling the government to check, as a part of normal audit procedures.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    A question for all --

    Why can't the state of Arizone check I-9's? If an answer would be that it's "federal," then why can't Arizona make it "state" with their own law?
    Actually, Arizona could. Collect copies of I-9's with employment tax returns, and check against existing government data bases.
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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    I agree, go after the employers, but I also agree with the AZ law. It's my understanding that employers, police, welfare agencies, etc., can all access .gov data bases to verify social security and legal green card numbers.

    One of the reasons I support AZ's efforts is that the feds are being bribed by corporate America to ignore enforcement of immigration laws, and that leads to chaos in states where illegal immigration is a big problem. Illegals in California cost over 20 billion per year in medical, welfare, education costs, etc., and what's more it's illegal for schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and law enforcement to even ask about a person's immigration status. So in effect, we have immigration laws (like every other country) but we are being prevented from implementing or enforcing them for political reasons... the republicans want cheap labor, the democrats want more votes. And both parties are willing to ignore the hardships on citizens and legal residents in order to get them.

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    Re: Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does?
    Of course other laws define what reasonable suspicion is. How do you know whether a person is drunk driving? Erratic driving, failure to pass that walking test, alcohol breath. A homicide? Driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, etc. Reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch. So what is the standard set around asking for a person's immigration status under reasonable suspicion? That's what this law doesn't define.

    See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.
    You've shown nothing. You have claimed that the standard for reasonable suspicion has been raised up for this law when no standard for reasonable suspicion has been set at all. The law as it stands would allow reasonable suspicion to be simply whatever a police officer thinks it is.

    So again I ask, what does the Arizona law define reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally as?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-14-11 at 12:17 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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