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Dayton Police Department Ordered to Lower Standards to Hire More Blacks

what's your point on the military? Are you saying that the poor get routed into the military?

I'm saying that in many poor schools, they advertise the military as a HUGE option for students. I assume it's because you can join with a high school diploma. In my schools, the military came and told about our options, but they didn't push it that hard. (I'm just reporting what has happened in a lot of inner-city schools, I'm not trying to offend the military if that's what you think).
 
It's not BS, I went to a private high school where some (obviously not most) parents didn't give a crap. They paid the money (so they did give a bit of crap), but some were never home, some were raging alcoholics, some never went to any of their children's events, some students had to take care of their siblings while their parents were off doing god knows what. But they had things in a great education system because of their parents money to escape from it all and do well.

Also, why do so many people on this board call the facts of poverty 'victimization'? They aren't 'victims'. In every country throughout the entirety of history, the poor are ALWAYS the least educated and benefit the least from society. Why are we still denying this thousands of years into civilization?

What I mean is, parent's in the inner cities constantly blame the teacher for their kids' lack of performance or poor conduct. Parents make excuses for their kids, because the parents themselves have been institutionalized to play the "vicitim" and expect government to be the answer to all their problems.

In the suburbs, no such excuses are available for parents, and if they play that game, they'll be summarily dismissed unless they have concrete evidence.

And the "raging alcholocs" and problem parents at your school made up a small fraction of the parents. In the inner cities, it's the vast majority.
 
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I think 16 is a bit old. you can usually tell by the time a kid is 12-13 whether or not he/she is cut out for academia. what you wind up with is a bunch of kids hanging around killing time and causing trouble in middle school waiting to turn 16 so they can drop out.

we can't be kicking kids out of school at 12 or 13. they can't work yet, and that's a bit early to give up on them. i've known plenty of 12-13 yr olds who got into trouble in jr high, because they couldn't quite handle the additional freedom, but straightened out and did just fine in hs.

at 16, they can work, and in many states they can take a ged test.
 
I don't think myself racist.

But I think front-of-the-bus programs have no place in todays age.

They are racist.

If there is a spot open in the front simply walk to it and sit down. Problem solved.

Make sure the recruiting mechanism is properly scrutinized and the problem will fix itself if one exsists.
 
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There is a lot of truth to the old saying, "the world needs ditch diggers, too."

I respect anyone who earns an honest living. I think most people feel that way.

Having a trade lends itself to high self-esteem. I think that's why the Hispanic American outperform black Americans by such a large margin; they aren't relying on being the next LeBron or Pdiddy. Most Hispanics take tremendous pride in the value of work, family, and self-reliance. In many cases, they're Republicans and don't know it.

That was a nice swipe, but unfortunately that's not a trait exclusive to Republicans.

I respect anyone who earns an honest living as well, but I also acknowledge the fact that education needs to prepare American students for the 'age of innovation' (there's probably a better term) that's replaced the age of industrialization that our system was built on. We are falling behind the rest of the world and that will not only challenge our credibility with our allies but also our dominance in science, engineering, computer science and other areas that, if say the Chinese become great at, we're screwed. I understand the argument for vocational schools, but I don't see why that can't be accompanied with improving schools that already exist since we haven't really tried that.
 
we can't be kicking kids out of school at 12 or 13. they can't work yet, and that's a bit early to give up on them. i've known plenty of 12-13 yr olds who got into trouble in jr high, because they couldn't quite handle the additional freedom, but straightened out and did just fine in hs.

at 16, they can work, and in many states they can take a ged test.

I didn't say kick them into the streets and make them get jobs. bring back or improve the vocational tracks in the public schools. when I was a kid, almost half the students in my class went to trade school. they would spend the first half of the day in classes (math, science, english) and then in the afternoon they would go to the trade/voc school and learn mechanics, autobody repair, cosmetology, etc, etc.
 
I didn't say kick them into the streets and make them get jobs. bring back or improve the vocational tracks in the public schools. when I was a kid, almost half the students in my class went to trade school. they would spend the first half of the day in classes (math, science, english) and then in the afternoon they would go to the trade/voc school and learn mechanics, autobody repair, cosmetology, etc, etc.

I've usually been resistant to the idea of vocational schools, but I think I have to reevaluate that. The problems of education will take a long time to fix, but at least something like this can make people contribute to society and lower crime levels. I still think we can be working on the other problems in the background, but yeah, if students who will otherwise fail in the system can be turned in another direction, I think that solves a lot of problems and would probably even curb a lot of the issues that come a long with poverty (i.e. if I can work on cars and maybe own my business one day, I don't have to steal them).
 
By 'so', are you saying that's were you came from? A racist garbage dump?

Or just 'so what' if he's a racist. It's his god-given right to hate black people? Is that what you mean by 'so'?

So, as the simple mention of the AG's race doesn't prove someone is from Stormfront and it was nothing but an attempted dodge from actually dealing with the topic. Seriously, I've seen stormfront trolls. I've had to deal with stormfront trolls. What the guy said is far, far from what you get from posters coming from there.

SO...how about you stop attempting to derail the topic or avoid discussing it, and actually talk about it if you want to post in the thread. Attacking the PERSON posting it with baseless accusations doesn't do that.

Strawman -- revealing your own bigotry and racist feelings toward the AG of the United States because of the color of his skin. Shameful.

Wait, so asking you if you agree or disagree with the action that is the topic of this thread is a strawman and racist?

When in the world did I even mention or give any credance to the AG's race? I'm simply asking if you agree with the action talked about in this thread or not.

I've never seen someone so blatantly enter a thread with the specific desire not to even address the topic before. You should actually research what a strawman argument is. Me asking you your opinion on the topic of the thread one way or another isn't a strawman. You however declaring that someone is a stormfront troll and attacking that is a strawman. You suggesting I'm racist simply for asking your opinion on a situation is a strawman
 
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From what I've heard, they don't really talk about vocational education is low-income schools. They bring up the military...but then half the kids don't graduate. I think vocational education would be a really good short term solution to getting people contributing to society, but in the long term, I still think we need make an effort to bring poor kids up to better levels. People keep saying that this is a lost cause, but the problem is, our government and education system has never actually tried to do it.

what's wrong with construction, mechanical repair, or anything else like that? we need all kinds of people in our society, and everbody CAN'T be a doctor.

absolutely, we should always strive to raise up the poor, but let's face it, some people will never make 100k a year, nor should they. as long as people can work with a living wage i'm ok with that. we will always have SOME lost causes.
 
obama's doj is crazily color conscious, it appears

its dismissal of the black panther voter intimidation case after the bush doj won a default judgement (because the defendants failed to appear) has been said by a pair of doj attorneys to reflect the dept's refusal to prosecute cases against african americans where the plaintiffs are white

wapo did a 5 (web) page story last october on this pooh pooh of the panthers that was explosive, the post's report realistically can only be seen as the laying of a groundwork for far reaching congressional investigation into and action on the matter

should the opposition ever opt to go that route, that is

conservatives should read the post, every word---liberals will of course steer clear

Dispute over New Black Panthers case causes deep divisions

it appears absolutely no justification exists for the dropping of the panthers, for the ridiculous ruling that mr shabazz stay away for 2 years from philly precincts only (he's free to take his billy club to scranton, for instance)

hauled before house appropriations last week, an exasperated holder slipped---all these questions about mr shabazz' night stick were demeaning, the ag sputtered, "to my people"

Eric Holder: Black Panther case focus demeans 'my people' - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

my people?

awfully race conscious for a united states attorney general

and now this, the doj's demand that dayton cops lower their standards---for obvious reasons

talk about demeaning millions of americans

oh well, party on
 
I've usually been resistant to the idea of vocational schools, but I think I have to reevaluate that. The problems of education will take a long time to fix, but at least something like this can make people contribute to society and lower crime levels. I still think we can be working on the other problems in the background, but yeah, if students who will otherwise fail in the system can be turned in another direction, I think that solves a lot of problems and would probably even curb a lot of the issues that come a long with poverty (i.e. if I can work on cars and maybe own my business one day, I don't have to steal them).

I knew we'd come to agree on an issue or two. ;) Can you imagine what it must be like to sit in a classroom and have everything go over your head? To always fail? To just, well, feel hopeless and helpless? We simply must have alternatives for these kids. Success (at anything) is soooo important. Let's give some of these kids something to succeed at besides, as you say, stealing cars.
 
That was a nice swipe, but unfortunately that's not a trait exclusive to Republicans.

I respect anyone who earns an honest living as well, but I also acknowledge the fact that education needs to prepare American students for the 'age of innovation' (there's probably a better term) that's replaced the age of industrialization that our system was built on. We are falling behind the rest of the world and that will not only challenge our credibility with our allies but also our dominance in science, engineering, computer science and other areas that, if say the Chinese become great at, we're screwed. I understand the argument for vocational schools, but I don't see why that can't be accompanied with improving schools that already exist since we haven't really tried that.

Unfortunately, a lot of kids just don't care. Nor do their parents.

"Education" is a just a crutch word. We use it as the answer to everything: teenage pregnancy, drug addition, gang violence...... What does it mean? How does throwing money at it help at all?

Most meaningful education comes via personal curiosity and pressure from parental units. The best and brightest tend to educate themselves more than anything.

The breakdown in families is the reason for America's education problem. That, and the lack of responsible parents. That's why Asians are outperforming much of the world; they don't have the familial issues America has.

And we keep making excuses for our preponderance of single-parent households, and explain around it likes it's barely there. That is the problem, plain and simple.
 
I didn't say kick them into the streets and make them get jobs. bring back or improve the vocational tracks in the public schools. when I was a kid, almost half the students in my class went to trade school. they would spend the first half of the day in classes (math, science, english) and then in the afternoon they would go to the trade/voc school and learn mechanics, autobody repair, cosmetology, etc, etc.

hey...i already mentioned voc schools.
 
obama's doj is crazily color conscious, it appears

its dismissal of the black panther voter intimidation case after the bush doj won a default judgement (because the defendants failed to appear) has been said by a pair of doj attorneys to reflect the dept's refusal to prosecute cases against african americans where the plaintiffs are white

wapo did a 5 (web) page story last october on this pooh pooh of the panthers that was explosive, the post's report realistically can only be seen as the laying of a groundwork for far reaching congressional investigation into and action on the matter

should the opposition ever opt to go that route, that is

conservatives should read the post, every word---liberals will of course steer clear

Dispute over New Black Panthers case causes deep divisions

it appears absolutely no justification exists for the dropping of the panthers, for the ridiculous ruling that mr shabazz stay away for 2 years from philly precincts only (he's free to take his billy club to scranton, for instance)

hauled before house appropriations last week, an exasperated holder slipped---all these questions about mr shabazz' night stick were demeaning, the ag sputtered, "to my people"

Eric Holder: Black Panther case focus demeans 'my people' - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

my people?

awfully race conscious for a united states attorney general

and now this, the doj's demand that dayton cops lower their standards---for obvious reasons

talk about demeaning millions of americans

oh well, party on

Let me add.....

Everyone knows this - everyone - and yet it goes largely unreported and undiscussed. And that is making for deeper divisions and greater angst.

In other words, it's good business for the Democrats and Jesse Jacksons of the world.
 
I'm saying that in many poor schools, they advertise the military as a HUGE option for students. I assume it's because you can join with a high school diploma. In my schools, the military came and told about our options, but they didn't push it that hard. (I'm just reporting what has happened in a lot of inner-city schools, I'm not trying to offend the military if that's what you think).



No I think you are under the impression that the military is made up of poor people, when in fact the poor are underrepresented compared to other economic classes.
 
what's wrong with construction, mechanical repair, or anything else like that? we need all kinds of people in our society, and everbody CAN'T be a doctor.

absolutely, we should always strive to raise up the poor, but let's face it, some people will never make 100k a year, nor should they.

1. It's less about money and more about opportunity and raising our country's standards for competition. 2. The argument that 'some people will never {insert high standard}' does not deal with the fact that more of those people are in low-income, minority areas than in other areas. For example, I've heard people say 'some people just aren't cut out for college'. Except, it's not just 'some people' we're talking about and not being cut out for college is not often a measure of individual capacities.

It's not random that there are less people 'cut out for college' or 'capable of making 100k' in poor neighborhoods than there are in middle class neighborhoods and it actually pisses me off when people treat the drop out rates in low-income neighborhoods the same way they treat the less frequent drop outs in middle class and wealthy neighborhoods (as if they describe the same phenomenon of some middle class kid who 'just isn't cut of for {insert}').

as long as people can work with a living wage i'm ok with that. we will always have SOME lost causes.

I agree that the program is a good solution and that it should be a permanent part of the education system, but I see no reason why we can't actually make an effort. I have had heard so many people make the argument that a vocational based education system is best for certain people, but most of those people would never put their own children in the same system. That's very telling to me.
 
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agreed. but i think we still have a responsbility to attempt to educate until the age of 16. kids can't change their parents. i would never agree, (and can hardly believe) that 19 year olds are ninth graders. oscar was correct when he said everbody can't be a doctor, or whatever it was he posted. most kids can be trained for something, it use to be called vocational education, is that gone now?

Vocational ed in our area is where kids are sent that cant hack school. ity SHOULD be considered a good option. I think they ought to have different high school degree tracks and there is nothing at all wrong with teaching basic education and vocational skills. Usually though it is seen as a place where all the dropouts and stoners go...an 'alternative' highschool. 'Alternative highschools' are BS as well...they teach kids that they can still fail and if they do a little extra credit they can graduate from HS...but are not prepared to face the world.

I think we can and should ATTEMPT to educate people...but not at the expense of those that are actually invested in learning. Employ a little Darwin...a little evolution. Succeed and you achieve. Dont...and...you dont.
 
I saw a video of a five foot nothing lady cop trying to arrest a monster who was like six and half feet tall and close to three hundred pounds. She nearly died for the sake of good feelings.

Awesome.

You use a mass murderer as your icon?
 
They shouldn't lower standards. I completely agree. That's counterproductive.

But maybe they should raise education standards in predominantly black neighborhoods so they wouldn't have any reason to lower other standards.

I would agree with your point if EVERY student in those schools failed.

Even in the worst of schools, if the student wants to learn and do well, he/she will.

I think the problem is in the home more than in eventhe worst schools out there.
 
I would agree with your point if EVERY student in those schools failed.

Even in the worst of schools, if the student wants to learn and do well, he/she will.

I think the problem is in the home more than in eventhe worst schools out there.

I agree that students who don't want to learn and also uninvolved parents are part of the problem.

However, in every society in history, the poorest have been the least educated which says to me that society's don't put in a lot of effort into educating them. The United States has not accounted very well in its system for the problems that affecting learning in poor areas. We teach them like we teach middle class kids. They need a little extra.

Also, low-income schools get much less funding because they pay much lower property taxes. Because of this, the after school activities that would keep some board kids away from gangs and the materials to spark interest in education are missing when if present, they would serve as time-consuming distractions from the problems at home. I think the problem is widespread enough that raising education standards could get a lot more students in those areas doing well. I don't think it solves all the problems, but I think it can solve many.
 
However, in every society in history, the poorest have been the least educated which says to me that society's don't put in a lot of effort into educating them.

it's a vicious cycle. they are poor because they are un/undereducated. they are un/undereducated because they are poor. today's society puts just as much effort into educating the poor as it does most everyone else. my two oldest kids went to the same public school and got the same education as the "poor" kids who lived in the trailer park a hlaf mile down the street.

you can raise standards all you like, unfortunately it is much harder to raise the motivation of some people to meet those standards.


as my old pappy always said, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
 
Also, low-income schools get much less funding because they pay much lower property taxes.




Paterson NJ, a city that is one of the worst and poorest cities in NJ: $14,587 per student

Newark NJ, Needs no introduction: $17,760 per student.



Bernerds TWP, NJ, A very affluent town: $10,841



It is a myth that poor inner city schools are underfunded. In fact they usually get more per student than comparitive towns that are not poor.


Comparative Spending Guide 2008
 
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Paterson NJ, a city that is one of the worst and poorest cities in NJ: $14,587 per student

Newark NJ, Needs no introduction: $17,760 per student.



Bernerds TWP, NJ, A very affluent town: $10,841



It is a myth that poor inner city schools are underfunded. In fact they usually get more per student than comparitive towns that are not poor.


Comparative Spending Guide 2008

In my state they all get funded equally. they actually take money away from rich schools and give it to the poor schools to balance it out. kids in the poor school districts still perform worse.
 
Paterson NJ, a city that is one of the worst and poorest cities in NJ: $14,587 per student

Newark NJ, Needs no introduction: $17,760 per student.


Bernerds TWP, NJ, A very affluent town: $10,841



It is a myth that poor inner city schools are underfunded. In fact they usually get more per student than comparitive towns that are not poor.


Comparative Spending Guide 2008

It's not a myth. There are many reports on it. Here's one of many. Thanks for the selective numbers though.

http://www.wested.org/online_pubs/pp-03-01.pdf
 
I agree that students who don't want to learn and also uninvolved parents are part of the problem.

However, in every society in history, the poorest have been the least educated which says to me that society's don't put in a lot of effort into educating them. The United States has not accounted very well in its system for the problems that affecting learning in poor areas. We teach them like we teach middle class kids. They need a little extra.

Also, low-income schools get much less funding because they pay much lower property taxes. Because of this, the after school activities that would keep some board kids away from gangs and the materials to spark interest in education are missing when if present, they would serve as time-consuming distractions from the problems at home. I think the problem is widespread enough that raising education standards could get a lot more students in those areas doing well. I don't think it solves all the problems, but I think it can solve many.

With what you said above, how do you take this into account.

When I was in school, in California, there were busloads of students brought in from Compton and other cities in LA to the valley. We had one of the best academic records in all of LAUSD, we couldn't win a football game to save our lives but that is another story, however that did not help most of the students bussed over.

The students that wanted to learn could and the ones that didn't threw it away.

The one guy I kept in touch with, was a bussed student. He is black. He did take advantage of the education and graduated.

He then proceded to put himself through college. It took him 10 years to get his first degree, but he did it himself. I never heard him say he couldn't do it, or he wasn't allowed because of his skin color. He did it all himself.

I realise that is anecdotal information, but my point still stands.

If the student wants to learn, they will.

A test should never be dumbed down for a certain group that has sat in the exact same classes as the other groups.

It is all about personal choice.
 
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