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Thread: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't believe that they ever believed in him. I think they saw him as the lesser of two evils. Khomeini or Pahlavi. Tough call. Understandable that they supported the devil they didn't know than the utterly evil devil that they did. They learned that sometimes neither option of evil is 'less'. I have a feeling that a lot of Westerners hoave the idea that the Shah wasn't so bad because he was pro-Western. That is nonsense.
    The Shah made some reforms, albeit well short of what many in Iran wanted. Of course, he was an authoritarian ruler. The Ayatollah's writings/speeches indicated illiberal rule based on unchanging interpretation of religion. Hence, it was clear that no meaningful reforms would follow.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The Shah made some reforms, albeit well short of what many in Iran wanted. Of course, he was an authoritarian ruler. The Ayatollah's writings/speeches indicated illiberal rule based on unchanging interpretation of religion. Hence, it was clear that no meaningful reforms would follow.
    Are you saying the Ayatollah was a swell guy?
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't believe that they ever believed in him. I think they saw him as the lesser of two evils. Khomeini or Pahlavi. Tough call. Understandable that they supported the devil they didn't know than the utterly evil devil that they did. They learned that sometimes neither option of evil is 'less'. I have a feeling that a lot of Westerners hoave the idea that the Shah wasn't so bad because he was pro-Western. That is nonsense.
    Depends on what you mean by "believed in him." They believed he had the will and the presence to bring down the Shah. They just thought they could control him. A lot of Westerners believe that the Shah wasn't so bad because he is compared to Khomeini. It has little to do with him being "pro-Western." He was more pro-modernization. When considering dictators, the West also immediately tend to think of Adolph Hitler (You may immediately think of Francisco Franco.) In this light, he is also considered "not so bad." Both were dictators. Both were pro modern. And both disallowed democracy. Khomeini also disallowed democracy, but killed all manner of growth and prosperity inside Iran (. The Shah of Iran was only "utterly evil" to the religious zealots who found themselves with less and less power and labeled him an apostate. Political prisoners of communist lean probably didn't care for him either. But the vast majority of Iranians simply wanted democracy and chose to rally behind the opposition - the religious base of zealots and radicals. Whenthey didn't get it, they found themselves going backwards into religious oppression and brutality. You may as well label Mubarak as "utterly evil."

    The Shah's greatest mistake was trying too hard to modernize a religious people that were both incapable of it at the time and hadn't earned it while prohibiting democracy to the vast majority.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-17-11 at 06:26 PM.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are you saying the Ayatollah was a swell guy?
    I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Depends on what you mean by "believed in him." They believed he had the will and the presence to bring down the Shah. They just thought they could control him. A lot of Westerners believe that the Shah wasn't so bad because he is compared to Khomeini. It has little to do with him being "pro-Western." He was more pro-modernization. When considering dictators, the West also immediately tend to think of Adolph Hitler (You may immediately think of Francisco Franco.) In this light, he is also considered "not so bad." Both were dictators. Both were pro modern. And both disallowed democracy. Khomeini also disallowed democracy, but killed all manner of growth and prosperity inside Iran (. The Shah of Iran was only "utterly evil" to the religious zealots who found themselves with less and less power and labeled him an apostate. Political prisoners of communist lean probably didn't care for him either. But the vast majority of Iranians simply wanted democracy and chose to rally behind the opposition - the religious base of zealots and radicals. Whenthey didn't get it, they found themselves going backwards into religious oppression and brutality. You may as well label Mubarak as "utterly evil."

    The Shah's greatest mistake was trying too hard to modernize a religious people that were both incapable of it at the time and hadn't earned it while prohibiting democracy to the vast majority.
    I think that is a very fair assessment. Kinder to the Shah than I think he merits since he was supported against the deomcratic wishes of the Iranians by a Western-orchestrated power grab, for which the Iranians blame Britain more than they blame the US btw, but I see your point. His was a very repressive, if modernising and Western-oriented regime. His SAVAK secret police was as brutal as many of the worst secret police of the 20th century. He cut out the newer generations of democrats and modern thinking middle classes and turned many of them towards the Islamist opposition. He reaped what he sowed in 1979. That the regime that followed was as repressive as his, and worse in many respects for many, it's unsurprising, as I said earlier, that they'd opt for the devil they didn't know than the devil they certainly did.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 03-17-11 at 07:11 PM.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    MSgt: The Shah's greatest mistake was trying too hard to modernize a religious people that were both incapable of it at the time and hadn't earned it while prohibiting democracy to the vast majority.
    Mustafa Kemal Attaturk managed to do it in Turkey but I sometimes think that it was a miracle of love. The Sultans and Caliphs were almost selling the country to Europe and Europeans had more power and rights in Turkey than the Turkish people had. Kemal feared the Turks would lose their country entirely if something wasn't done. I don't know if it was because many Turks were already becoming familiar with the West or that their leaders had become degenerate and secular or what happened but somehow Kemal managed to convince the Turkish people to come into the modern age. Maybe because he loved them and they love him dearly still. I hope they don't put themselves under Muslim religious leaders now, I can't imagine those people doing it willingly after all these years of freedom.

    If England hadn't colonized India, the non-Muslims (if any were even left alive and unconverted) would be still be suffering tremendously under the cruelty of the Muslims. As it is they have a democracy and an uneven but peaceful and forward looking country.

    Saddam Hussein managed through cruelty and secularism to modernize and educate his country.

    I wonder if there is any way in the world any Middle East country today will be able to exist without a cruel master so long as they cling to the religion of the cruel master. Their god is cruel and their prophet is cruel, obviously they respect cruelty.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Mustafa Kemal Attaturk managed to do it in Turkey but I sometimes think that it was a miracle of love. The Sultans and Caliphs were almost selling the country to Europe and Europeans had more power and rights in Turkey than the Turkish people had. Kemal feared the Turks would lose their country entirely if something wasn't done. I don't know if it was because many Turks were already becoming familiar with the West or that their leaders had become degenerate and secular or what happened but somehow Kemal managed to convince the Turkish people to come into the modern age. Maybe because he loved them and they love him dearly still. I hope they don't put themselves under Muslim religious leaders now, I can't imagine those people doing it willingly after all these years of freedom.
    You can't really compare the Shah and Ataturk. Mustafa Kemal came to power having led the nation through a hideous war of national liberation against Britain, France, Russia and Greece. He didn't introduce democracy immediately, but he ensured that it would be introduced. The Shah did the opposite.

    If England hadn't colonized India, the non-Muslims (if any were even left alive and unconverted) would be still be suffering tremendously under the cruelty of the Muslims. As it is they have a democracy and an uneven but peaceful and forward looking country.
    This is anti-Moslem nonsense, before the British the Moghuls were ruling stably and not uncommonly cruelly for the times.
    Saddam Hussein managed through cruelty and secularism to modernize and educate his country.
    True.

    I wonder if there is any way in the world any Middle East country today will be able to exist without a cruel master so long as they cling to the religion of the cruel master. Their god is cruel and their prophet is cruel, obviously they respect cruelty.
    Oh Christ! Listen to yourself. Troll.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 03-17-11 at 10:39 PM.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post


    Oh Christ! Listen to yourself. Troll.
    You don't think it's a problem? Where is there evidence of anything else?

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.
    Then you don't call one leader an authoritarian and the other a ruler through unchanging interpretation of religion. You call him a fanatical Islamic murderer, which is what he was. Don't give me that PC crap, cause you don't want to offend a religion.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Then you don't call one leader an authoritarian and the other a ruler through unchanging interpretation of religion. You call him a fanatical Islamic murderer, which is what he was. Don't give me that PC crap, cause you don't want to offend a religion.
    The Shah and Khomeini were both megalomaniac, autocratic asses with no interest in democracy and a nasty habit of killing anyone who opposed them. Clear? The difference was that in 1979 the Iranians already knew what kind of a low-life thug the Shah was. They had yet to be introduced to the joys of Khomeini's brand of homicidal Shi'ism. That's why he won and the Shah lost, despite or perhaps because of his support from the West.
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