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Thread: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

  1. #71
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I disagree about the 'winning'. It comes with the definition. The war against Afghanistan ended damn near a decade ago. Winning should have involved
    -helping their people form a new government-check
    -provide a reasonably stable platform and help train a police and military-nope
    -Set a specific deadline for departure....ummm...nope.

    And Obama doesnt shoulder the blame for that part. Bush mismanged the post war operation. Obama owns his portion and I agree...he is doing a dismal job.
    If you wanna be real, the first objective didn't really get achieved either as Afghanistan is still a failed state.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If you wanna be real, the first objective didn't really get achieved either as Afghanistan is still a failed state.
    Not sure I agree. We have pretty much kept them co-dependent. We dont know if it is a failed state or not and wont until they are actually given the reponsibility to manage on their own. A successful Afghanistan doesnt have to look like the US. Point of fact I believe that in the long term they will still be tribal, there will still be corruption (OK...in that part they are JUST like the US)...basically they will have their own failings like all countries. We cant know until they have had the opportunity to succeed. i think we have hindered their growth as a country.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Not sure I agree. We have pretty much kept them co-dependent. We dont know if it is a failed state or not and wont until they are actually given the reponsibility to manage on their own. A successful Afghanistan doesnt have to look like the US. Point of fact I believe that in the long term they will still be tribal, there will still be corruption (OK...in that part they are JUST like the US)...basically they will have their own failings like all countries. We cant know until they have had the opportunity to succeed. i think we have hindered their growth as a country.
    I suspect the recent polling results are a function of a number of factors:

    1. Lack of understanding of the strategic importance of Afghanistan.
    2. Failure to achieve better results to date than what have been attained and that were attainable (this failure, in particular, has changed expectations related to a successful outcome).
    3. Irregular and ineffective communication of developments and outcomes in Afghanistan.
    4. Competing priorities that have grown more prominent.
    5. National fatigue.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    there are a lot of areas of mega importance, geo politically

    regionally, MEXICO is a major problem

    even gorby failed in the mountains on the moon, and those folks fought with a ruthless WILL totally unknown to the chicago crowd currently occupying our capitol

    pray for our soldiers, pray for the people of afghanistan/pakistan

    pray for billions of others

    peace

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    End operations in Afghanistan, Karzai tells NATO

    I guess Karzai and the people of Afghanistan have decided the cure is worse than the disease. The drone attacks must be horrifying on many levels. It's too bad the coward terrorists insist on hiding behind women and children.
    This has nothing to do with the "people" of Afghanistan. Most of the people are Pashtun. Most of the Pashtun want the Afghanistan that was emerging in the early 1970s before the Communist Party gained power and invited in the Soviet Union. And the outlying tribes are content with Afghanistan being run by a Pashtun (historical) just as long as he respects their tribal soveriegnty (also historical). Karzai is just growing tired of the pressures that we are placing upon him. He is slow to attack corruption and even slower when it comes to feeding his security forces with the resources they need to fight his people's enemy. Everytime the enemy doesn't deliver us a perfect combat scenario, people get upset. He uses this to try to pressure the international community into believeing that his people want us gone. He would prefer a business deal with the Taliban that leaves him in power and delivers "peace." This deal would allow 70 percent of the world's heroin to go on funding the Taliban and Al-Quedas with a kick back to his cabinet. And all would be merry except for the miserable farmer who gets terrorized every year for not producing and the worsening education situation that feeds into Al-Queda type organizations. Of course, the Taliban would have other plans for his cabinet once we left, but Karzai is just that stupid. The intellectuals of Iran once believed in Khomeini. That was before he got his power and executed much of them.

    The people do not want us gone. Not yet.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-16-11 at 05:44 PM.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    if so, then the president has failed in his primary mission

    in my opinion, increasing numbers of americans are coming to see that we simply cannot succeed over there

    personally, i believe we have no chance of military success anywhere so long as this incompetent crew is in the white house

    war is difficult, war is serious, war requires mobilizing a nation

    obama's not even personally committed to the effort, i think it's obvious
    But nothing was won with Bush, who I believe WAS committed to the struggle. Perhaps you believe otherwise.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I suspect the recent polling results are a function of a number of factors:

    1. Lack of understanding of the strategic importance of Afghanistan. Understanding by whom?
    2. Failure to achieve better results to date than what have been attained and that were attainable (this failure, in particular, has changed expectations related to a successful outcome). Any analysis of why these results weren't achieved?
    3. Irregular and ineffective communication of developments and outcomes in Afghanistan. I don't believe this. I think communications from Afghanistan to the West have been comprehensive.
    4. Competing priorities that have grown more prominent. Priorities are the preserve of the actors in the situation. Focus on your own.
    5. National fatigue.Perfectly reasonable. I think this has been the driver for some time.
    The key issue is that US/NATO went into Afghanistan hoping to address domestic issues in a foreign theatre. Bush went into it needing to quell domestic unrest at 9/11 by focusing on the external threat. That didn't work. Sometimes it does - Thatcher and the Falklands for example - but usually not. In this case, not.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The intellectuals of Iran once believed in Khomeini. That was before he got his power and executed much of them.
    Incredibly, they believed in him even as his extensive body of writing/speeches indicated that he would offer anything but liberal democratic and enlightened rule.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Incredibly, they believed in him even as his extensive body of writing/speeches indicated that he would offer anything but liberal democratic and enlightened rule.
    I don't believe that they ever believed in him. I think they saw him as the lesser of two evils. Khomeini or Pahlavi. Tough call. Understandable that they supported the devil they didn't know than the utterly evil devil that they did. They learned that sometimes neither option of evil is 'less'. I have a feeling that a lot of Westerners hoave the idea that the Shah wasn't so bad because he was pro-Western. That is nonsense.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 03-16-11 at 07:10 PM.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    But nothing was won with Bush, who I believe WAS committed to the struggle.
    afghanistan, i fear, is a loser

    especially up against his self imposed, purely political timeline

    this white house, i'd add, appears incapable of operating a foreign policy, let alone waging a major war

    my opinion, i hope i'm wrong

    pray

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