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Thread: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    hmmm... hadn't thought about that. You might be entirely right Mega. It's really a far cry now from back in 2001 when everyone seemed to love Karzai.
    Don't forget, with the USA out of the picture Karzai's corruption can be swept back under the rug. But I do want us out of Afghanistan, and I want to stop sending money to that despotic little thief as well.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    A few quick thoughts:

    1. Mr. Karzai may be engaging in another one of his impulsive outbursts for which he is well-known. If so, NATO operations will not be impacted.
    2. Mr. Karzai means what he says.

    In the second case, the U.S. will need to make a strategic judgment as to whether U.S. interests--not Mr. Karzai's--are better served from adhering to or rejecting his call. If U.S. interests are better served from ignoring Mr. Karzai's demand, the U.S. should do just that.

    In any case, I am not too surprised by this outcome. I have argued before that the Kabul-centric approach is a strategic blunder. It goes against Afghanistan's decentralized structure and it depends on an impulsive, emotional, frequently unreliable partner, whom many Afghans view as illegitimate. Perhaps this latest outburst might offer an opportune time for making a strategic change. Whatever the case, the U.S. should set its direction based on its interests, not Mr. Karzai's latest whim de jour.

    The following excerpts from my November 29, 2009 discussion remain applicable:

    IMO, placing emphasis on working with the tribal leaders rather than the inept, corrupt, and among many Afghans, illegitimate, government in Kabul will be key. Reliance on Kabul will likely lead to unsatisfactory outcomes...

    Afghanistan is not a "nation" in the true sense of the word. It is comprised of largely autonomous areas, each with its own leaders, traditions, cultures, and needs. A functional military strategy has to be built on the structure that exists in Afghanistan, not one that might be preferable but is not present. A Kabul-centric strategy will likely leave things pretty much as they currently stand, with swaths of territory held by the Taliban and Taliban attacks continuing.


    Although some progress has been made since the current strategy was put in place last year, I believe the progress is less than what would have been achieved had the Karzai regime's influence been limited. At this point in time, I still believe a reasonably satisfactory outcome in Afghanistan (one that limits the Taliban's/Al Qaeda's prospects of regaining a safe haven) can be salvaged.

    Doing so will require tough strategic adjustments that better reflect that country’s history and structure, namely de-emphasizing Mr. Karzai and the present Kabul-centric approach. Under such a strategic change, Afghanistan’s tribal leaders would be charged with allocating resources that would be furnished for reconstruction, economic development, education within their areas of jurisdiction. Security operations would be coordinated with the tribal leaders. Local security forces would be developed and trained. Those forces would be charged with maintaining security in areas under the jurisdiction of each tribal leader. They would be developed with attention to maintaining a careful balance of power so that no local area would be in a position to try to gain preeminence at the expense of others.

    Only truly national issues--those that impact the entire country--would be financed through and coordinated with the central government. Those efforts would immediately be focused on developing an adequate legal and constitutional framework, financial system, central army that would complement local security forces when needed (including a "balancing" role), not serve as a substitute for them, and ultimately an election that would establish a government that Afghans would widely view as legitimate.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    The problem with Karzai is the same as we have witj Obama. He's an amateur and can't for a minute thing his rag tad military has the where with all to do the mission alone.

    No one wants to see innocent civilians killed but it's was and shtuff happens and the only way to avoid it is to fold your tent and go home.

    Does anyone have a clue how many 10s of thousands died in WW-II from collateral damage? It's the reality of war.

    Karzai if not careful will end up with his head on a pole and his body in a ditch.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    The problem with Karzai is the same as we have witj Obama. He's an amateur and can't for a minute thing his rag tad military has the where with all to do the mission alone.

    No one wants to see innocent civilians killed but it's was and shtuff happens and the only way to avoid it is to fold your tent and go home.

    Does anyone have a clue how many 10s of thousands died in WW-II from collateral damage? It's the reality of war.

    Karzai if not careful will end up with his head on a pole and his body in a ditch.
    But, in mitigation, he probably takes a little more care over his communiqués than you do.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Aghanistan : self-government :: 3-year-old : Quantum theory

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Aghanistan : self-government :: 3-year-old : Quantum theory
    Sadly I'd have to agree with this. I'd modify "self-government" to "democratic self-governance" though.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sadly I'd have to agree with this. I'd modify "self-government" to "democratic self-governance" though.
    At what point do you think the Allies realised this blinding example of the bleeding obvious? Was the example of the Greeks, the Persians, the Turks, the British and the Russians not enough? What exactly does anyone believe can be achieved there? You are not going to export democracy (the Western version of it) to Afghanistan. So what will the Allies legacy be?
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    As far as I'm concerned Karzai can pound sand, this corrupt sob is in bed (IMO) with the Taliban. What Karzai wants should not be our main concern here, its whether or not the enemy has been defeated or lost the will to fight and carry on. I dont see this yet.

    We originally went there to punish the bastards who were behind or complicit with the 9-11 attacks. If we leave now the Taliban will surely re-take that country in fairly short order and establish a terror state which will once again become a training ground for future attacks against the west. We cannot leave there until these people who insist on killing us are defeated even if we have to kill every last one of them. The alternative is to continually be fighting these people off, never knowing when or where the next one is going to hit, because they are not going to stop, there idealogy wont let them. They will have to be dealt with much in the same manner in which we did with the some of the hardcores in the Werhmact & Imperial army in WW2 who would not give up, even at the end.

    While at some point here we may not need as many ground troops there I can forsee special forces assets & air assets staying there for the forseeable future.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    At what point do you think the Allies realised this blinding example of the bleeding obvious? Was the example of the Greeks, the Persians, the Turks, the British and the Russians not enough? What exactly does anyone believe can be achieved there? You are not going to export democracy (the Western version of it) to Afghanistan. So what will the Allies legacy be?
    The original intent was not so much as to export democracy as to eliminate or discourage the threat of the Taleban and terrorism. In order to do that it is necessary to have a government which is at least accountable in some way to the outside world, and if it is a functioning democracy with human rights, so much the better.

    But if the west fails in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, it is not because we lack the military capability, it is because we lack the will. And although the Left may welcome such an event, everyone except the religious fanatics will be the worse for it.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    At what point do you think the Allies realised this blinding example of the bleeding obvious? Was the example of the Greeks, the Persians, the Turks, the British and the Russians not enough? What exactly does anyone believe can be achieved there? You are not going to export democracy (the Western version of it) to Afghanistan. So what will the Allies legacy be?
    That's the million-dollar(or Euro)-question isn't it? I don't think Afghanistan will suddenly embrace Jeffersonian democracy, their entire culture and society is still based around the tribe. The Allied legacy in Afghanistan remains to be seen.

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