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Thread: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The Shah and Khomeini were both megalomaniac, autocratic asses with no interest in democracy and a nasty habit of killing anyone who opposed them. Clear? The difference was that in 1979 the Iranians already knew what kind of a low-life thug the Shah was. They had yet to be introduced to the joys of Khomeini's brand of homicidal Shi'ism. That's why he won and the Shah lost, despite or perhaps because of his support from the West.
    I think you meant to talk to someone else, because that response doesn't address what I'm saying.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Then you don't call one leader an authoritarian and the other a ruler through unchanging interpretation of religion. You call him a fanatical Islamic murderer, which is what he was. Don't give me that PC crap, cause you don't want to offend a religion.

    Why don’t you expand on your post a bit.IE, How you think that in 1979 that the Iranians already knew what a low life the Shah was, what gave you that clue? And what you meant when you said that “they had not yet been introduced Khomeini's brand of homicidal Shi'ism”.

    Perhaps you can give us your thought on Khomeini,s opposition to the white revolution, a reform the Shah wanted to implement, that among other things called for the right of woman to vote and the sale of state owned enterprise to private interest. Enlighten us ole sage of the one-liners.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think you meant to talk to someone else, because that response doesn't address what I'm saying.
    Then you should ask direct questions, not just float out some poorly-worded, mispelled stream of consciousness.
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    Why don’t you expand on your post a bit.IE, How you think that in 1979 that the Iranians already knew what a low life the Shah was, what gave you that clue? And what you meant when you said that “they had not yet been introduced Khomeini's brand of homicidal Shi'ism”.

    Perhaps you can give us your thought on Khomeini,s opposition to the white revolution, a reform the Shah wanted to implement, that among other things called for the right of woman to vote and the sale of state owned enterprise to private interest. Enlighten us ole sage of the one-liners.
    I was talking about Don, genius. Don described him in PC nice turn, while calling the other authoritarian. It's bull****. They were both assholes, but I think the Ayatollah more so.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I was talking about Don, genius. Don described him in PC nice turn, while calling the other authoritarian. It's bull****. They were both assholes, but I think the Ayatollah more so.
    PC nice turn?
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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    PC nice turn?
    Is that all you got, a typo? Bwuahahahahahaha
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Is that all you got, a typo? Bwuahahahahahaha
    You are a very silly little man who can't write English so that it can be understood. I've answered all your questions and I'm fairly confident that the point of drawing comparisons between the Shah and the Ayatollah is both valid and reasonable. You appear to be making no argument whatever, about anything. Please get off the thread.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are you saying the Ayatollah was a swell guy?
    Not at all. On the contrary, I have consistently stated not only that the Ayatollah was worse, but also that it was a strategic error for the U.S. to abandon the Shah. For example, on March 10, 2011 I posted:

    ...the U.S. made a strategic blunder in failing to back the Shah during the rising Iranian revolution. The revolutionary nature and perspective of Ayatollah Khomenei was well-established in his large set of writings and speeches. Anyone who was familiar with the Ayatollah and his body of work should have understood that he was both illiberal, radical, and anti-Western. Clearly, the Shah was an authoritarian ruler, but he was also a reliable ally (helping out during the Arab oil embargo, conducting commerce with Israel, etc.)

    Not surprisingly, what followed was even worse. Aside from purges and an full-fledged reign of terror during which the regime consolidated its power, Iran's people are not much more free today than they were under the Shah. Unlike the Shah who was not anchored to religious doctrine and could be pragmatic at times, the Clerical rulers tie themselves to a rigid interpretation of religious doctrine and are uncompromising. Moreover, the Iranian regimes that followed during the post-Shah era have been hostile to U.S. interests and also revolutionary in seeking to overturn the region's balance of power (against U.S. interests and allies). In short, U.S. interests were damaged and Iran's people did not benefit thanks to a naive hope that the Ayatollah would usher in a democratic era consistent with American ideals, even as the Ayatollah's life and works strongly pointed to harsh authoritarian rule and an anti-Western foreign policy.


    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059339712

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think that is a very fair assessment. Kinder to the Shah than I think he merits since he was supported against the deomcratic wishes of the Iranians by a Western-orchestrated power grab, for which the Iranians blame Britain more than they blame the US btw, but I see your point. His was a very repressive, if modernising and Western-oriented regime. His SAVAK secret police was as brutal as many of the worst secret police of the 20th century. He cut out the newer generations of democrats and modern thinking middle classes and turned many of them towards the Islamist opposition. He reaped what he sowed in 1979. That the regime that followed was as repressive as his, and worse in many respects for many, it's unsurprising, as I said earlier, that they'd opt for the devil they didn't know than the devil they certainly did.
    This is what bothers me so much today. We don't seem to want to move on from Cold War prescription. I call it intellectual habit in that people tend to prefer what is comfortable instead of the unknown that would be better. Sort of like refusing change because "that's the way we've always done it" argument.

    After World War II, Europe pulled out of their colonies. The Age of Independence produced one military coup after another in these locations and the dictators they produced leaned either American or Soviet. People found themselves stuck between living under secular dictators or seeking the religious oppositions. In time democracy became harder to achieve and even in the West people simply assume that "these people can't produce democracy." Here we are pushing democracy and social justice in the region since 9/11, but we fall short of rallying behind the people even as they rebel on their own between Tunisia to Bahrain. Outside of the Sunni Arab world we voice a very meak and limited support towards Iranians. WHY? Why is it that we can accept that we helped facilitate some of this mess over the Cold War decades, but deny that we have a responsibility to help them past our past prescriptions? I just don't get it.

    - In terms of long term security, a democratic Middle East is best.

    - In terms of long term stability, a democratic Middle East is best.

    - In terms of long term economic gain, a democratic Middle East is best.

    - In terms of long term peace, a democratic Middle East is best.

    And this is just for the rest of the world. For the Middle Eastern people themselves social justice, economic justice, religious justice, education, opportunity will never come from religious theocracy or a dictator. I just don't get people's shallow opinion that none of this is our problem. It's because none of this has existed is why so many Muslim people turn towards the radical Mullah who swears that God is whispering in his ear. An escallating number of religious terror organizations came from a lack of such fundamental human basics. This poroblem was never confined to Afghanistan or Iraq. Those were merely door openers to the wider problem. And now that the people across the region are crying out in mass for democracy and a new path, we act as if we are shocked or confused. I saw all this coming. It was inevitable. And now that's it's here, we are failing to be what we preach. We give anti-Western (anti-American) voices legitimation in their tired criticisms.

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    Re: End Operations in Afghanistan, Karzai Tells NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Mustafa Kemal Attaturk managed to do it in Turkey but I sometimes think that it was a miracle of love. The Sultans and Caliphs were almost selling the country to Europe and Europeans had more power and rights in Turkey than the Turkish people had. Kemal feared the Turks would lose their country entirely if something wasn't done. I don't know if it was because many Turks were already becoming familiar with the West or that their leaders had become degenerate and secular or what happened but somehow Kemal managed to convince the Turkish people to come into the modern age. Maybe because he loved them and they love him dearly still. I hope they don't put themselves under Muslim religious leaders now, I can't imagine those people doing it willingly after all these years of freedom.

    If England hadn't colonized India, the non-Muslims (if any were even left alive and unconverted) would be still be suffering tremendously under the cruelty of the Muslims. As it is they have a democracy and an uneven but peaceful and forward looking country.

    Saddam Hussein managed through cruelty and secularism to modernize and educate his country.

    I wonder if there is any way in the world any Middle East country today will be able to exist without a cruel master so long as they cling to the religion of the cruel master. Their god is cruel and their prophet is cruel, obviously they respect cruelty.
    Oh, but analyze Turkey and Attaturk. The Ottoman caliphs had been receiving friction from the Sunni elders on the Arab penisula for a couple centuries. Every attempt to modernize the culture or to reform the religion was met with threats. Rather than be labeled an Apostate, Ottoman caliphs simply settled. When Attaturk abolished the Sultan, he ended 1400 years of the caliphate system. Ottoman's, like Persians, were converts. They were never held at the same level of respect as the Sunni tribe.

    Furthermore, there seems to be a trend amongst today's Middle Eastern nations that have leanede towards modernization and reform. Iran (back in the day) was on the way to democracy before we supported the Shah. From Muhammad Ali to Nasser, Egypt has a history of seeking modernization and the West's aid. Before Turkey abolished the caliphate system in the 1920s ansd began experimenting with democracy, Sultans sought Europe's guidance to modernize. What ties these nations together s that all three have a written history prior to Islam. There isno recorded history for the Sunni tribe prior to Muhammad and the Qu'ran. This is why Iraq was so important. The closer to the heartland of Islam we get, the more brittle the concrete is. And it has been this center that has historically been so pig headed about Islam that thery have managed to keep the entire region confused and twisted. The fringes will reform begfore the Sunni heart and does.

    I very much believe that the Middle East doesn't have so much of a Muslim problem. Muslims live under democracies inthe West just fine. Indonesia is treking along. Turkey abolished the caliphate. Iran sought democracy before the Shah. Egypt seeks it now. I believe the Middle East has a Sunni problem. Islam, in the Middle East, has been centered towards the Sunni tribe since the beginning and as converts became more insolent in the last century, the Sunni have been lashing out. It's the insolence of the Shia that have made them outcasts since Muhammad died.

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