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Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

mac said:
That is your opinion. I was raised to beleive otherwise, and my religion says it's wrong. If it's choice, than my religion is not wrong, if it is not a choice, then my religion is wrong. The available evidence so far tells me that my religion is not wrong.
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Exactly how do you prove something is or is not a choice?

Furthermore, what if it is a choice for some people but not for others? If it turns out that some people choose to be gay and others are born gay will you require some sort of test so that the ones who were born gay are the only ones that can enter into same sex marriage?
 
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mac said:
It's not a strawman....it's showing you how (some) people that oppose SSM view it.
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It is totally a strawman. A strawman argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Explain to me what dolphins have to do with sexual discrimination.
 
CriticalThought said:
Exactly how do you prove something is or is not a choice?
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By proving that it is or is not genetic.

Furthermore, what if it is a choice for some people but not for others? If it turns out that some people choose to be gay and others are born gay will you require some sort of test so that the ones who were born gay are the only ones that can enter into same sex marriage?
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If it's proven to be genetic, then I would assume people were born gay and leave it at that.
 
spud_meister said:
Genetics isn't the only was for something to not be a choice.
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I agree, but it makes logical sense to me that it would be, if it were other than a choice. Proving that it was an unconsciously learned behavior would be far harder to conclusively document though, if it were the case. Any study leaning that way would have to be pretty damn compelling.
 
mac said:
By proving that it is or is not genetic.
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What about biological factors other than genetics? What about epigenetics? What about fetal hormones? What about neurological changes resulting from trauma? How about viruses or chemical pollutants?

How about nurturing factors that might exclude choice such as socialization or habituation?

If it's proven to be genetic, then I would assume people were born gay and leave it at that.
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I believe the current consensus by the scientific community is that homosexuality is the result of a complex interaction of genetics, inborn hormones, cognitive factors, and environmental factors. If that is the case then would homosexuality be a choice or not a choice?
 
CriticalThought said:
What about biological factors other than genetics? What about epigenetics? What about fetal hormones? What about neurological changes resulting from trauma? How about viruses or chemical pollutants?
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What about it? If it's proven it's proven.

How about nurturing factors that might exclude choice such as socialization or habituation?
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How about alien social engineering. If it's scientifically proven to be outside the control of the person, then I'll change my view. So, throw up ten more what ifs....my answer will be the same.

I believe the current consensus by the scientific community is that homosexuality is the result of a complex interaction of genetics, inborn hormones, cognitive factors, and environmental factors. If that is the case then would homosexuality be a choice or not a choice?
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The current consensus is it May be.....
 
mac said:
The current consensus is it May be.....
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Interesting. Well you argue that homosexuality is a choice. So what scientific evidence do you have to support that notion? How do you prove that something is a choice?
 
CriticalThought said:
Interesting. Well you argue that homosexuality is a choice. So what scientific evidence do you have to support that notion? How do you prove that something is a choice?
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I don't have proof that it is a choice. What I have is evidence leading me to believe it is....combined with other factors not worth talking to you about. Before you say it, yes I do understand that there is evidence that it may not be a choice as well.....the operative of the day however, is may.

See how much easier this is when we are being civil?
 
mac said:
I don't have proof that it is a choice. What I have is evidence leading me to believe it is....combined with other factors not worth talking to you about. Before you say it, yes I do understand that there is evidence that it may not be a choice as well.....the operative of the day however, is may.
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Also interesting. So speaking in purely physiological terms, would you say that you could choose to get an erection for another man as you may for a woman?

What other preferences do you choose? Could you choose to like your least favorite food? Could you choose to dislike your favorite food?
 
CriticalThought said:
Also interesting. So speaking in purely physiological terms, would you say that you could choose to get an erection for another man as you may for a woman?
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I don't know, I haven't tried.....it's not happened by accident if that's what you mean. Am I to be the measure of humanity?

What other preferences do you choose? Could you choose to like your least favorite food? Could you choose to dislike your favorite food?
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Uhm, yeah....they change frequently.....I like variety.
 
mac said:
I don't know, I haven't tried.....it's not happened by accident if that's what you mean. Am I to be the measure of humanity?
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Given that your personal experience and upbringing is part of the justification you are using in your opposition to same sex marriage, it seems fair that it should be used to explore the other side. I cannot remember a time in my entire life that I have become sexually aroused from looking at a woman. Did I choose not to have an erection? At what point in your life did you choose not to become sexually aroused by men?

Uhm, yeah....they change frequently.....I like variety.
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Read the questions again. Personally, I could never like my least favorite food. Just the thought of it makes me ill.
 
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CriticalThought said:
Given that your personal experience and upbringing is part of the justification you are using in your opposition to same sex marriage, it seems fair that it should be used to explore the other side. I cannot remember a time in my entire life that I have become sexually aroused from looking at a woman. Did I choose not to have an erection? At what point in your life did you choose not to become sexually aroused by men?
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My personal experience is that I am heterosexual. I believe it to be the natural coarse, as such my having not chosen a different path means I chose heterosexuality. Perhaps by default. Conformist that I am......

Read the questions again. Personally, I could never like my least favorite food. Just the thought of it makes me ill.
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There is no food that I detest...but I get your jist. IF you are asking me if I could choose to be homosexual...my answer is is suppose I could if I had to for some hypothetical reason....but I would likely choose the other door, so to speak.
 
mac said:
My bad. This is more difficult.....I don't rule out that it is a choice, but I tend to lean towards more of a "natural course" point of view on it. In my view, it obviously has biology pushing for it, so if it is a choice, it is heavily influenced by biology. I also recognize the gender conforming personality traits could lead us to emulate behaviors of our mentors.
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OK... I see the gender conforming piece... that is you being consistent with your description of homosexuality. How is it influenced by biology?
 
CriticalThought said:
I believe the current consensus by the scientific community is that homosexuality is the result of a complex interaction of genetics, inborn hormones, cognitive factors, and environmental factors. If that is the case then would homosexuality be a choice or not a choice?
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Correction CT: the current consensus by the scientific community is that sexual orientation is the result of a complex interaction of genetics, inborn hormones, cognitive factors, and environmental factors. Not just homosexuality, but heterosexuality also.
 
mac said:
I don't know that, the behavior is not legitimately deserving of specific rights....
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So LGBT people don't deserve equal protection. Atleast your honest about wanting to oppress a section of American citizens.
 
mac said:
It doesn't matter...it's his view (at least according to you).
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It IS his view...and he's entitled to it...but don't be so arrogant to believe that everyone else it required to adopt it.
 
disneydude said:
It IS his view...and he's entitled to it...but don't be so arrogant to believe that everyone else it required to adopt it.
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I don't. Many have that view freely, many don't. But I would remind you, disneydude....that I was asked for my view. Don't be so arrogant to insinuate that I am trying to force my views on anyone. I'm simple stating what they are....as I was asked to do.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
OK... I see the gender conforming piece... that is you being consistent with your description of homosexuality. How is it influenced by biology?
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Hormones....evolutionary impulses to procreate....inter-locking parts...
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Correction CT: the current consensus by the scientific community is that sexual orientation is the result of a complex interaction of genetics, inborn hormones, cognitive factors, and environmental factors. Not just homosexuality, but heterosexuality also.
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I would correct you and say that the general consensus is that it may be any combination of the factors you listed. From what I've read.
 
Your Star said:
So LGBT people don't deserve equal protection. Atleast your honest about wanting to oppress a section of American citizens.
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Since he believes that homosexuality is a choice, he doesn't see it as oppresive to treat it like any other "behavior" people engage in. I would guess that he doesn't consider it any more oppresive than banning drug use (although I might be wrong on that).
 
mac said:
Hormones....evolutionary impulses to procreate....inter-locking parts...
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Procreation and sexual orientation are two different things. Since we know that many gays want to procreate... and do, the biological component that you identified does not exist only in heterosexuals.

So, with that in mind, I'll ask my question again: How is heterosexuality influenced by biology?
 
mac said:
I would correct you and say that the general consensus is that it may be any combination of the factors you listed. From what I've read.
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Sure, that's fine.
 
All this intellectual gymnastics and verbosity over one dude wanting to do another dude in the butt as a married couple. These threads are so strange to me.

Marriage was originally about having children. It is founded in classical religion. Without either, what's the point of getting married?

As soon as a guy can get a guy pregnant, or a woman can get a woman pregnant, I'll perhaps begin to understand this fascination.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Procreation and sexual orientation are two different things. Since we know that many gays want to procreate... and do, the biological component that you identified does not exist only in heterosexuals.

So, with that in mind, I'll ask my question again: How is heterosexuality influenced by biology?
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I'm talking about how things would interact with our learning experiences that push us to heterosexuality...if it is a learned behavior. The urge to procreate, in my mind, would push someone towards a lifestyle that more easily supports that. Our species reproduces sexually...requiring a male and a female to do it.

The sensations generated leading up to and during intercourse are designed to be stimulated by heterosexual, penis to vagina, intercourse. To stimulate these same sensations outside of normal intercourse, actions must be taken to "artificially" stimulate these areas. Sexual activities other than penis to vagina intercourse do this in manners I like to think of as varying from the norm. Such activities are normal out to a certain "range" and then become less or abnormal. (I fully understand that this last bit is my own theory)

Also, the male and female body are designed to fit together for sexual reproduction. The male body is not designed to fit the male body for intercourse, likewise with females. In fact, the anus is the most dangerous place on the human body to "explore". The delicacy of the skin of the anus combined with the lack of natural production of lubrication and the heightened levels of bacterias makes anal sex a down right risky venture.

Understanding my point of view relies on an acceptance of "normal intercourse". Many are unwilling to accept that idea, but if the type of intercourse our bodies are designed to engage in is not the basis for this, then there simply is no basis and it relies solely on opinion.
 
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