Page 79 of 94 FirstFirst ... 2969777879808189 ... LastLast
Results 781 to 790 of 939

Thread: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

  1. #781
    Maquis Admiral
    maquiscat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    7,945

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Eh, I do this in almost every one of these threads in which I participate. Quite a few folks have incorporated it into their position. Unfortunately, there are still those who argue against this very simple point. It's similar to understanding that one can be angry... and can behave in many different ways. A state of being does not define one's behaviors, or vice versa. One's sexual orientation does not dictate one's behaviors. It influences them, but we have gays who participate in heterosexual behaviors and straights that participate in homosexual behavior. There is so much documentation on this in both a variety of sources and for a variety of reasons, I makes no sense to me why someone would deny that there is a difference between a state of being and a behavior. Those who have a hard time with this concept tend to be those who understand that this undermines a major part of their argument, so they must remain in denial about it.
    I agree with you. My sister is a 100% confirmed lesbian. She is however married to a man. This individual caught her quite by surprise and he is an exception to her rule. But she is not bisexual because she has no attraction to any male but him, in a romantic/sexual nature. So she is a homosexual that does heterosexual acts. Her behavior, in this one case, differes from her orientation.

    However, with the other woman (and I will agree that trauma can cause physical changes, but we still need to put it under the "choice" catagory since it does not fit under the "genetic/born as it catagory and we only seem to have the two sides), I would still say that she is now homosexual. She is attracted to only women right now. That is how we are determining orientation, is it not, by what we are attracted to, not by what we do? I know we can use actions as a indicator, but then we look at how many gays covered up thier sexuality by maintaining false lives, so it's not the final clue.

  2. #782
    Sage
    mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    DC Metro
    Last Seen
    11-13-16 @ 12:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    22,499

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    No, not much.
    A bit.

    ...........
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #783
    Sage
    mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    DC Metro
    Last Seen
    11-13-16 @ 12:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    22,499

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I personally know a woman who has switched from men to women because of rape trauma. So yes it CAN be a "choice" (i.e. not determined by genetics), and may even be a conscious decision, instead of subconscious.
    This would prove thebook's premise wrong as well.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  4. #784
    Sage
    CriticalThought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    18,121

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    ...we still need to put it under the "choice" catagory since it does not fit under the "genetic/born as it catagory and we only seem to have the two sides
    Is that a joke or do you really see this as a dichotomy?

    Most human behaviors are neither choice nor innate, but fall within a gray area between.

    However, arguing someone made a choice when they were traumatized and had a lasting change to their sexual orientation occur as result is akin to arguing that someone who was pushed into a fire chose to have burns. It's ridiculous.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 03-18-11 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #785
    Sage
    mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    DC Metro
    Last Seen
    11-13-16 @ 12:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    22,499

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I understand that this is what you believe... and this is my problem with your argument. Nothing you have said disputes anything that has been said contrary to your belief. From a purely logical standpoint, what you believe is not valid.
    Then please do tell me why you think that heterosexuality is a learned behavior.

    I am ignoring nothing. You are claiming design as valid point to support your position. I am challenging you on "design". Again, logically, you cannot prove your position.
    Simply not true. The observance of how things work and using that to form/support your position is nothing but logical. If I were making it up, that'd be different.

    No, I think I have done two things. Out argued you and proven my position... or at the least proven that the logic behind yours is faulty. What I have NOT done is change your mind. In general, that is not my intent.
    I disagree that you have proven any position. All you have done is claim min false, which you have not disproven....only doubted/questioned.

    And I would disagree with that generalizing. The behaviors MAY be common, but they do not define. That is the error in your logic.
    Since we are talking about what might influence the learning of a behavior....why would they not influence the learning if the behavior?

    Actually, I disagree. The people that you just described, I ignore, universally. I find them either ignorant on the topic, or I respect their beliefs... depending on how they present themselves. For example, before his "change" digsbe usually presented as one who's belief was based in religion. He understood the logic behind both his and the opposing position, but held onto his religious beliefs. I practically NEVER debated digsbe on this issue because of his presentation. He fell into the second category that I described.
    Ok.

    I appreciate that you are looking at this a little differently because of how heterosexuality has been presented. It is a fairly original argument that I have developed over time and often throws people off. However, much of what you just said... especially the last part is where your logic falls apart. Please present studies that show that heterosexuality it natural and homosexuality is unnatural. You said you have read them. I'd like to see how those studies made that determination.
    Well, I tell you what. Please give a valid explanation why my assumptions are false rather than just saying "I disagree so I win."

    I will agree that this is a difference... which is why I have felt no need to be overly aggressive with you. I am very well versed on this topic and can be pretty brutal when I choose to be.
    As can I, specially when people play devil's advocate with the Bible.

    This is your belief system. Logic cannot prove that what you just said is valid, especially the "natural" part. As I said, if you stuck to the religious part of your argument, I would find very little to argue with you about. But your attempts to logically validate your position isn't cutting it.
    Logic alone does not rule the world, CC, we're not Vulcans. As far as the logic...the things I bring up are logical, just not important in your view. I've made nothing up or made an incorrect observances. Observation of actions, activities, and behaviors can logically lead to several outcomes. The idea that applying logic only yields one outcome is simply incorrect. If this were true than there would be no Theories or philosophies....there would be fact and fact alone.

    "Heterosexuality is right" is not a fact. "Homosexuality is wrong" is not a fact, and the opposites are also true. This leaves it up to a different path than logic to follow to find out how we incorporate them into out society and lives.
    Last edited by mac; 03-18-11 at 09:41 AM.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  6. #786
    Sage
    mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    DC Metro
    Last Seen
    11-13-16 @ 12:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    22,499

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Is that a joke or do you really see this as a dichotomy?

    Most human behaviors are neither choice nor innate, but fall within a gray area between.

    However, arguing someone made a choice when they were traumatized and had a lasting change to their sexual orientation occur as result is akin to arguing that someone who was pushed into a fire chose to have burns. It's ridiculous.
    I'd have to agree. Response to trauma is not generally considered "choice". While the person is indeed choosing behavior, the impact of the trauma on the decision is probably dramatic enough to be nearly the sole factor.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  7. #787
    Sleeper Agent
    iamitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY, NY
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 01:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    1,836

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    mac, can you respond to CC's "Please present studies that show that heterosexuality it natural and homosexuality is unnatural. You said you have read them. I'd like to see how those studies made that determination."?
    I'm interested in reading them as well.
    Give a man a fish, or he will destroy the only existing vial of antidote.

  8. #788
    Sage
    mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    DC Metro
    Last Seen
    11-13-16 @ 12:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    22,499

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    mac, can you respond to CC's "Please present studies that show that heterosexuality it natural and homosexuality is unnatural. You said you have read them. I'd like to see how those studies made that determination."?
    I'm interested in reading them as well.
    I've never said that. What I said is that I've read studies that say homosexuality may be a result of a number of factors. If you interepreted that to mean I had read studies proving that heterosexuality was natural then you misunderstood or I was unclear.

    I recently posted that "Heterosexuality is right" is not a fact. That means I am not claiming it is.

    edit: quoteing myself to show what I said previous to your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    "Heterosexuality is right" is not a fact. "Homosexuality is wrong" is not a fact, and the opposites are also true. This leaves it up to a different path than logic to follow to find out how we incorporate them into out society and lives.
    Last edited by mac; 03-18-11 at 02:45 PM.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #789
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    It's either the result of trauma or a birth defect, so either way.....

  10. #790
    Sleeper Agent
    iamitter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY, NY
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 01:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    1,836

    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I've never said that. What I said is that I've read studies that say homosexuality may be a result of a number of factors. If you interepreted that to mean I had read studies proving that heterosexuality was natural then you misunderstood or I was unclear.

    I recently posted that "Heterosexuality is right" is not a fact. That means I am not claiming it is.

    edit: quoteing myself to show what I said previous to your post:
    I was talking about this claim not your comment there.
    The things I have said make perfect sense to me, although applying the arguments to heterosexuality is new for me. I'm exploring that, I hadn't approached the issue from that direction. Nevertheless, everything available (including available studies) indicates to me that Heterosexuality is natural, and homosexuality is unnatural.
    So, in this case "Please present studies that show that heterosexuality it natural and homosexuality is unnatural. You said you have read them. I'd like to see how those studies made that determination." is a reasonable request.
    Last edited by iamitter; 03-18-11 at 04:48 PM.
    Give a man a fish, or he will destroy the only existing vial of antidote.

Page 79 of 94 FirstFirst ... 2969777879808189 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •