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Thread: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    That's because he meant it as an insult. You had no problem percieving my jokes as insults....hypocrite much?
    No, not much.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    That's because he meant it as an insult. You had no problem percieving my jokes as insults....hypocrite much?
    That was your perception. As I said before, I don't consider calling someone a conformist an insult, I consider being a conformist to be an insult. My value system would never allow me to be a conformist. I have no issue with you being a conformist, I simply wanted you to recognize it, which you eventually did and you even articulated a hypothesis that homosexuality is a form of nonconformity.

    Conformity is simply the process by which human behavior is homogenized in accordance with either group or religious expectations. It's useful for forming group cohesion, order, and stability. Everyone conforms to a degree. However, when an individual conforms to the point that it becomes their very identity, as is the case with people who adhere to a religious doctrine and expect others to do the same, then it becomes an issue. I was simply pointing out the fact that your chosen identity as a conformist makes debate a rather pointless endeavor for you since you are simply looking for evidence to support your preconceived beliefs and any arguments you do make will simply fall back on your religious beliefs.

    Of course, you got a little hot under the collar when I pointed all this out to you because you feel that I look down on conformists, when in reality I simply pity the narrow world that conformists live. I was raised as a Christian and was very conservative when I was young, so I do know the feelings of acceptance and serenity of that world but it required that I suppressed major parts of who I am which ultimately negated the whole point. I'm by no means an atheist, I have my own relationship with God, but I recognize my beliefs in God are based on intuition rather than conviction. I also am aware of the historical origins of the Bible and the psychology behind it, so I have rejected it, whereas you have accepted it on faith. These factors make us very different people, but I respect your self determination to make the decision to be a conformist, which is unfortunate because you very identity requires that you reject my homosexuality, which I am fairly certain I never chose.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I do know both hetero and homosexuals who have "switched" for the sake of experimentation though. I haven't personally but I think their example is enough to prove your premise wrong.
    I personally know a woman who has switched from men to women because of rape trauma. So yes it CAN be a "choice" (i.e. not determined by genetics), and may even be a conscious decision, instead of subconscious.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I personally know a woman who has switched from men to women because of rape trauma. So yes it CAN be a "choice" (i.e. not determined by genetics), and may even be a conscious decision, instead of subconscious.
    Sexual trauma can actually cause substantial neurological changes. That is a measured effect, especially among children who have been sexually abused. I question the use of the word "choice" since I doubt you know exactly what physical changes occurred in her brain as a result of her trauma. However, treatment of sexual trauma has lead to some people making major shifts in their sexual orientation and unresolved trauma can seemingly influence sexual orientation.

    That aside, my family knows a woman who was a die hard lesbian for most of her life, and she left her partner of twenty years for a man. That was a conscious choice on her part. As such, I am aware that some people are capable of choosing their sexual orientation. I do not know the degree to which you can generalize that ability. People have varying degrees of neuroplasticity which influences the degree to which they can change attractions which are biologically inborn, learned, or the result of socialization. The opposite occurs, and people who desperately wish to change their sexual orientation put in every effort to do so and when they fail, they may even take their own lives. Those examples are just as worthy of consideration as the examples of people who choose their sexual orientation and they demonstrate the danger of making a hasty generalization.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 03-18-11 at 03:29 AM.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Not to mention that women are much more likely to be somewhat bisexual in nature. Although I'm not sure if the reason behind this is well known, this is a reasonably well-agreed upon occurrence. There are also people who don't care about gender, just personality.

    This does not, however, have much to do with choice.
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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Well, the funny thing is that I don't really believe that heterosexuality is a learned behavior. I believe it to be the outcome of the normal course of a humans development. I believe the opposite to be true with homosexuality. I believe it to be a choice, perhaps sub-conscious, made possible by various learned personality traits.
    I understand that this is what you believe... and this is my problem with your argument. Nothing you have said disputes anything that has been said contrary to your belief. From a purely logical standpoint, what you believe is not valid.

    Regardless, in the course of it's normal operation, the vagina accommodates the penis. The same cannot be true of the Anus. Ignore the biological/anatomical truth of that all you like.
    I am ignoring nothing. You are claiming design as valid point to support your position. I am challenging you on "design". Again, logically, you cannot prove your position.

    I don't think you have, at best you've out argued me. The rules of debate are not rules of life though.
    No, I think I have done two things. Out argued you and proven my position... or at the least proven that the logic behind yours is faulty. What I have NOT done is change your mind. In general, that is not my intent.

    We are talking about the natures of behaviors commonly conducted by persons of a certain orientation. How those behaviors affect affinity with an orientation, I believe, very much do affect the development of the orientation.
    And I would disagree with that generalizing. The behaviors MAY be common, but they do not define. That is the error in your logic.

    I disagree that you do. I think you are used to arguing the issue with folks that believe "God Said No", and have no further argument.
    Actually, I disagree. The people that you just described, I ignore, universally. I find them either ignorant on the topic, or I respect their beliefs... depending on how they present themselves. For example, before his "change" digsbe usually presented as one who's belief was based in religion. He understood the logic behind both his and the opposing position, but held onto his religious beliefs. I practically NEVER debated digsbe on this issue because of his presentation. He fell into the second category that I described.

    Well, part of my argument is God said no, a significant part, I'll concede. I take that and look at homosexuality from as open a perspective as I can manage, and look at the available evidence surrounding the issue. The things I have said make perfect sense to me, although applying the arguments to heterosexuality is new for me. I'm exploring that, I hadn't approached the issue from that direction. Nevertheless, everything available (including available studies) indicates to me that Heterosexuality is natural, and homosexuality is unnatural.
    I appreciate that you are looking at this a little differently because of how heterosexuality has been presented. It is a fairly original argument that I have developed over time and often throws people off. However, much of what you just said... especially the last part is where your logic falls apart. Please present studies that show that heterosexuality it natural and homosexuality is unnatural. You said you have read them. I'd like to see how those studies made that determination.

    Another difference between me and many you may have argued with is that I don't think this alone makes people good or bad. As far as I'm concerned, there are ten sins, and a few variants. Though shalt not cornhole your neighbor is not on the list. That means it's a rule, not a sin. I've broken a few rules myself.
    I will agree that this is a difference... which is why I have felt no need to be overly aggressive with you. I am very well versed on this topic and can be pretty brutal when I choose to be.

    I've begun to ramble so I'll try to sum up....being gay doesn't make you someone I fear, dislike, distrust, abhor, etc, etc. I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they like to each other in privacy, even if it is immoral/illegal/weird. I also believe that wanting to do those things doesn't necessarily put you in a group deserving the right of marriage. Just because a few folks want something to be accepted and natural, doesn't make it accepted and natural.
    This is your belief system. Logic cannot prove that what you just said is valid, especially the "natural" part. As I said, if you stuck to the religious part of your argument, I would find very little to argue with you about. But your attempts to logically validate your position isn't cutting it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I personally know a woman who has switched from men to women because of rape trauma. So yes it CAN be a "choice" (i.e. not determined by genetics), and may even be a conscious decision, instead of subconscious.
    This is a result of some co-morbid psychological diagnosis that resulted from the trauma. The sexual behavior has occured because of that. It is VERY unclear as to what her sexual orientation is, and one cannot base sexual orientation on an experience like that.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is a result of some co-morbid psychological diagnosis that resulted from the trauma. The sexual behavior has occured because of that. It is VERY unclear as to what her sexual orientation is, and one cannot base sexual orientation on an experience like that.
    This is still the thing that confuses people, homosexuality the orientation vs homosexuality the action. Some one with a big file system needs to put a set of definitions at the start of each of these threads. Wonder who we know who is good at filing...
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    Iíve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals. - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is still the thing that confuses people, homosexuality the orientation vs homosexuality the action. Some one with a big file system needs to put a set of definitions at the start of each of these threads. Wonder who we know who is good at filing...
    Eh, I do this in almost every one of these threads in which I participate. Quite a few folks have incorporated it into their position. Unfortunately, there are still those who argue against this very simple point. It's similar to understanding that one can be angry... and can behave in many different ways. A state of being does not define one's behaviors, or vice versa. One's sexual orientation does not dictate one's behaviors. It influences them, but we have gays who participate in heterosexual behaviors and straights that participate in homosexual behavior. There is so much documentation on this in both a variety of sources and for a variety of reasons, I makes no sense to me why someone would deny that there is a difference between a state of being and a behavior. Those who have a hard time with this concept tend to be those who understand that this undermines a major part of their argument, so they must remain in denial about it.

    At some point, I will create one of my "repostable" posts on this issue that folks can use as a reference point, similar to both my posts on the research validating no difference between children of straights vs. children of gays and those that document the history of the declassification of homosexuality as a disorder.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Eh, I do this in almost every one of these threads in which I participate. Quite a few folks have incorporated it into their position. Unfortunately, there are still those who argue against this very simple point. It's similar to understanding that one can be angry... and can behave in many different ways. A state of being does not define one's behaviors, or vice versa. One's sexual orientation does not dictate one's behaviors. It influences them, but we have gays who participate in heterosexual behaviors and straights that participate in homosexual behavior. There is so much documentation on this in both a variety of sources and for a variety of reasons, I makes no sense to me why someone would deny that there is a difference between a state of being and a behavior. Those who have a hard time with this concept tend to be those who understand that this undermines a major part of their argument, so they must remain in denial about it.

    At some point, I will create one of my "repostable" posts on this issue that folks can use as a reference point, similar to both my posts on the research validating no difference between children of straights vs. children of gays and those that document the history of the declassification of homosexuality as a disorder.
    What would really be awesome would be if you made a nice thread with a list of gay issue links all nice and organized, stuck it in the Sex and Sexuality forum, and stickied it. Or passed along the sources to me and I will do it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    Iíve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals. - Lindsey Graham

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