Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

CriticalThought · Mar 15, 2011

mac said:
How does me disagreeing with homosexuality make me homophobic?

I don't recall anyone saying that you are homophobic or that disagreeing with homosexuality makes someone homophobic. I recall that the allegatioin is that you have made comments that are homophobic, which would be comments that reflect negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Do you deny that you have made such comments?

Keep in mind that I do not give a crap about where you stick whatever where-ever you like to stick it.

I hope not. It would be awfully pathetic if you did.

CriticalThought · Mar 15, 2011

mac said:
You don't. As evidenced by your inability to listen to me telling you exactly why I am opposed to it.

So far you have listed half a dozen logical fallacies, your religious beliefs, and a challenge that people need to provide scientific evidence against the Biblical God's undefined thoughts on homosexuality, as the basis for your opposition. Am I missing something?

Your Star · Mar 15, 2011

Your Star said:
You want to oppress people, no matter how you rationalize it, that is the end result. Just admit it, or keep lying to yourself.

Never responded to this mac, finally accepting the fact that you want to oppress people?

disneydude · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
There's no difference. He doesn't think the way you approve of, and you are criticizing him for it.

Not at all...you are simply mischaracterizing it. I fully support his individual views to his individual opinions. What I am criticizing is his arrogant view that every other person should adhere to what he believes is appropriate.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
I don't recall anyone saying that you are homophobic or that disagreeing with homosexuality makes someone homophobic. I recall that the allegatioin is that you have made comments that are homophobic, which would be comments that reflect negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Do you deny that you have made such comments?

Do you deny that you have repeatedly and frequently stereotyped me?

I hope not. It would be awfully pathetic if you did.

At great pain of having to agree with you, you're absolutely right. What consenting adults do to each other is entirely their business.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

Your Star said:
Never responded to this mac, finally accepting the fact that you want to oppress people?

I did, It is not my personal intent to oppress anyone.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

disneydude said:
Not at all...you are simply mischaracterizing it. I fully support his individual views to his individual opinions. What I am criticizing is his arrogant view that every other person should adhere to what he believes is appropriate.

It doesn't matter...it's his view (at least according to you).

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
So far you have listed half a dozen logical fallacies, your religious beliefs, and a challenge that people need to provide scientific evidence against the Biblical God's undefined thoughts on homosexuality, as the basis for your opposition. Am I missing something?

The thing is....the rules of debate don't form peoples opinions.

People don't need to provide squat. I will continue to read these studies for as long as I have access to them, and when one come out saying "Homosexuals are born homosexual." My view will change. What won't change my view, a view formed by my upbringing, my religion, my understanding of nature, my understanding of human anatomy, and a few other things, is a study or studies that say "Homosexuals may be born homosexual." I don't really give a rats ass if you follow that logic or feel that there is no logic there. Just know when(if) the study comes out you'll have one more guy in your corner. Until then, it's opinion vs my opinion.

Your Star · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
I did, It is not my personal intent to oppress anyone.

But it's the result, like I said, if you want to deny that, then well, it's on your conscience.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

Your Star said:
But it's the result, like I said, if you want to deny that, then well, it's on your conscience.

It's not my intent. I disagree with SSM, and I disagree that being homosexual puts you in a catagory granting equal access to marraige. All that being said, I obviously don't see it as oppression.

Your Star · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
It's not my intent. I disagree with SSM, and I disagree that being homosexual puts you in a catagory granting equal access to marraige. All that being said, I obviously don't see it as oppression.

I don't care if it's not your "intent" your view of SSM is oppressive to LGBT people, even if you don't want to admit it, you know it's true deep down. Like I said, it's on your conscience.

CriticalThought · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
The thing is....the rules of debate don't form peoples opinions.

People don't need to provide squat. I will continue to read these studies for as long as I have access to them, and when one come out saying "Homosexuals are born homosexual." My view will change. What won't change my view, a view formed by my upbringing, my religion, my understanding of nature, my understanding of human anatomy, and a few other things, is a study or studies that say "Homosexuals may be born homosexual." I don't really give a rats ass if you follow that logic or feel that there is no logic there. Just know when(if) the study comes out you'll have one more guy in your corner. Until then, it's opinion vs my opinion.

Exactly what does the biological origins of homosexuality have to do with same sex marriage? If homosexuality were a learned behavior, then exactly how would that make it anymore right or wrong? And why do you assume that you would ever accept a scientific journal that did say it was innate? If a scientific journal argued that people are born as pedophiles would that change your opinion on pedophilia or allowing adults to marry 8 year olds? You honestly would accept such a journal article?

Are you seeing at all why this position you are putting forth seems utterly ludicrous to us all? No it isn't logical in the least. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is an irrational opinion and therefore inferior to a rational one.

CriticalThought · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
Do you deny that you have repeatedly and frequently stereotyped me?

I called you a conformist and I was proven correct. Even though the term is technically correct in describing you, you do not like it because you believe I use it as an insult. However, a conformist is someone who adheres to a religous doctrine. That is what you do, and you do it quite proudly, insisting that only absolute scientific evidence that disproves a Biblical God's undefined thoughts could call into question your faith.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

Your Star said:
I don't care if it's not your "intent" your view of SSM is oppressive to LGBT people, even if you don't want to admit it, you know it's true deep down. Like I said, it's on your conscience.

I don't know that, the behavior is not legitimately deserving of specific rights....

CriticalThought · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
I don't know that, the behavior is not legitimately deserving of specific rights....

The behavior may not, but how about the people who practice it?

Traditional marriage is sexual discrimination. A man can marry a woman but not another man. A woman can marry a man but not another woman. As such, each gender has a right that the other gender does not have.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
Exactly what does the biological origins of homosexuality have to do with same sex marriage?

If I type slowly will it help? I disagree with SSM because I don't think that being homosexual makes you deserving of specific rights, this is because I view homosexuality as a choice. If homosexuality were proven to not be a choice I would reverse this opinion.

If homosexuality were a learned behavior, then exactly how would that make it anymore right or wrong? And why do you assume that you would ever accept a scientific journal that did say it was innate? If a scientific journal argued that people are born as pedophiles would that change your opinion on pedophilia or allowing adults to marry 8 year olds? You honestly would accept such a journal article?

If homosexuality is a learned behavior (completely or primarily unconsciously learned) and it was scientifically proven, then I would reverse my decision. If either of these were to be true, I would see denial of marriage as a punishment, and I would disagree with that.

Are you seeing at all why this position you are putting forth seems utterly ludicrous to us all? No it isn't logical in the least. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is an irrational opinion and therefore inferior to a rational one.

Yes, because I value things you don't value. That thing that I value has weight for me that it doesn't have for you. You're view that it is illogical is based on the fact that a piece of my puzzle doesn't make sense to you. You're assumption that my opinion is inferior to your opinion is pure arrogance, and nothing more.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
The behavior may not, but how about the people who practice it?

They are entitled to follow the law like the rest of us. Marriage is between a man and a woman....in most places.

Traditional marriage is sexual discrimination. A man can marry a woman but not another man. A woman can marry a man but not another woman. As such, each gender has a right that the other gender does not have.

There's a move afoot to get both Chimps and Dolphins legally categorized as persons. Would you support interspecies marriage assuming that they were legally declared persons?

CaptainCourtesy · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
If I type slowly will it help? I disagree with SSM because I don't think that being homosexual makes you deserving of specific rights, this is because I view homosexuality as a choice. If homosexuality were proven to not be a choice I would reverse this opinion.

Do you see heterosexuality as a choice? Why or why not?

CriticalThought · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
If I type slowly will it help? I disagree with SSM because I don't think that being homosexual makes you deserving of specific rights, this is because I view homosexuality as a choice. If homosexuality were proven to not be a choice I would reverse this opinion.

If homosexuality were a choice, then why shouldn't two people of the same sex be allowed to marry? In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether someone chooses to be gay or is born gay. I think everyone is entitled to marry the person they love. Why shouldn't people have that choice if homosexuality were a choice?

Yes, because I value things you don't value. That thing that I value has weight for me that it doesn't have for you. You're view that it is illogical is based on the fact that a piece of my puzzle doesn't make sense to you.

What do you value that I don't value?

You're assumption that my opinion is inferior to your opinion is pure arrogance, and nothing more.

In a world where logic does not matter, then it would be arrogance. But we do live in a logical world with logical rules.

CriticalThought · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
They are entitled to follow the law like the rest of us. Marriage is between a man and a woman....in most places.

Actually, I could go get married anywhere in the United States. There is no law keeping me going to a gay friendly church and getting married by a pastor. The only thing I'm prohibited is the license and the rights attached to it.

There's a move afoot to get both Chimps and Dolphins legally categorized as persons. Would you support interspecies marriage assuming that they were legally declared persons?

What does that have to do with sexual discrimination? That sounds like a terrible strawman to me. A man is denied a right that woman has and a woman is denied a right that a man has. That is obvious sexual discrimination.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CaptainCourtesy said:
Do you see heterosexuality as a choice? Why or why not?

I believe it to be a choice influenced by learned traits and behaviors. I believe a combination of personality traits, such as non-conformity, lead one to a lifestyle that is different than the norm. The fetish aspect of breaking taboos could influence homosexual preference. "Enlightenment" and education could lead one to question and confront accepted morality. Things of this nature.

There's more, but it is late, and I'm drugged.

CaptainCourtesy · Mar 16, 2011

mac said:
I believe it to be a choice influenced by learned traits and behaviors. I believe a combination of personality traits, such as non-conformity, lead one to a lifestyle that is different than the norm. The fetish aspect of breaking taboos could influence homosexual preference. "Enlightenment" and education could lead one to question and confront accepted morality. Things of this nature.

There's more, but it is late, and I'm drugged.

Reread my question. I asked, "do you see HETEROsexuality as a choice? Why or why not?"

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
If homosexuality were a choice, then why shouldn't two people of the same sex be allowed to marry? In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether someone chooses to be gay or is born gay. I think everyone is entitled to marry the person they love. Why shouldn't people have that choice if homosexuality were a choice?

That is your opinion. I was raised to beleive otherwise, and my religion says it's wrong. If it's choice, than my religion is not wrong, if it is not a choice, then my religion is wrong. The available evidence so far tells me that my religion is not wrong.

What do you value that I don't value?

My religious beliefs.

In a world where logic does not matter, then it would be arrogance. But we do live in a logical world with logical rules.

I did not say logic does not matter, what I said was there was more to it than logic.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CaptainCourtesy said:
Reread my question. I asked, "do you see HETEROsexuality as a choice? Why or why not?"

My bad. This is more difficult.....I don't rule out that it is a choice, but I tend to lean towards more of a "natural course" point of view on it. In my view, it obviously has biology pushing for it, so if it is a choice, it is heavily influenced by biology. I also recognize the gender conforming personality traits could lead us to emulate behaviors of our mentors.

mac · Mar 16, 2011

CriticalThought said:
Actually, I could go get married anywhere in the United States. There is no law keeping me going to a gay friendly church and getting married by a pastor. The only thing I'm prohibited is the license and the rights attached to it.

Indeed.

What does that have to do with sexual discrimination? That sounds like a terrible strawman to me. A man is denied a right that woman has and a woman is denied a right that a man has. That is obvious sexual discrimination.

It's not a strawman....it's showing you how (some) people that oppose SSM view it.

Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

CriticalThought

CriticalThought

Your Star

Rage More!

disneydude

mac

mac

mac

mac

Your Star

Rage More!

mac

Your Star

Rage More!

CriticalThought

CriticalThought

mac

CriticalThought

mac

mac

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

CriticalThought

CriticalThought

mac

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

mac

mac

mac