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Thread: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

  1. #171
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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I choose not to steal, punch or otherwise disobey the law because 1) Empathy 2) Reason 3) Fear of law 4) Desire to contribute to society.

    1. It becomes much more difficult to hurt another person when you force yourself to empathize with them. If you develop this habit in children instead of developing the habit of feeling guilty about not living up to morality, this will become a huge guide for their behavior, one that is tied to their own minds and emotions (i.e. undeniable) and much more difficult to ignore than external moral principles (which rely on faith rather than knowledge).

    2. Reason - If I hit or kill that person I do so under the assumption that they deserve it or are less than me. However, there is no evidence other than my own opinion and because opinions are unproven hypotheses, hurting that person would make no sense. If we instill a habit in children that encourages to think about the nature and superiority of themselves and their beliefs rather than instilling a set of morals by which to judge and condemn others by, then they will realize that the reasons they have for hurting others are ridiculous at their foundation and develop understanding rather than condemnation, or at the very least, become to tired by the end of the thought to do anything.

    3. Fear of the law. It already exists and I don't want to go to jail.

    4. Contribute to society. I grew up in a family and school system that made me want to contribute to society not only for society's sake, but also because I like the idea of having an impact - really that alone is enough to stop me from breaking the law screwing that up.

    Moreover, Iin many low-income neighborhoods, religion and morality are an even bigger part of society and everyday life than in many wealthy areas (if you go to the Austin area of West Side of Chicago a predominately low-income area, there are churches on every corner...there are also drug dealers on every other corner). Lack of obedience to the law is more tied to levels of poverty than it is to the absence of religion/morality.

    5. Atheists who were raised in atheist households obey the law all the time because of things within them that they motivate them to do so. One of my good friends is an atheist raised in an atheist household is one of the kindest, most genuine people and by behavioral standards, very 'moral'. She was also an RA in college.
    1 and 4 are certainly morailty. As to 5, they are obeying a laws that are based on societal morality...in all societies that currently exist, that morality is heavily influenced by religion.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  2. #172
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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    1 and 4 are certainly morailty. As to 5, they are obeying a laws that are based on societal morality...in all societies that currently exist, that morality is heavily influenced by religion.
    moral    

    1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
    2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.
    3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
    4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
    5. conforming to the rules of right conduct ( opposed to immoral): a moral man.

    None of my points have anything to do with right conduct, right/wrong or good/bad. 'Right' is not the issue because right isn't intrinsic to anything I've talked about.

    #1 is not morality. It becomes morality when you attach meanings of good/bad, right/wrong to them. With pure empathy, you aren't controlling your behavior because you feel it's right or wrong, good or bad, you're controlling your behavior because you don't want to cause pain since you know what pain feels like. That knowledge is enough. For example, if you insult someone, see the pain on their face and you feel empathy for them, you may want to hug them or apologize because you feel the weight of their emotion, not because of morality. This is what I mean by empathy. It has nothing to do with what's good or bad.

    Another example, I won't steal because I know that stealing will hurt the person I'm stealing from as evidenced by the pain/anger I feel imagining it/empathizing. Once you decide that this makes not stealing right is when it becomes moral. Other than that it's just a guide.

    edit: you can develop a system of morality based on empathy, but empathy and acting on empathy do not necessitate morality

    #4 is not morality either. The desire to contribute to society because it's a good or right thing to do is morality. The desire to contribute to society because you want to have an impact is not (i.e. it's cool to see how my actions can change things). There is nothing moral about this.

    #5 I said society no longer needs morality and religion to maintain law and order. I never argued that those laws were not based on morality (in fact, I agreed that they were). Atheists show that religion is not required to obey the law or to have a desire to obey it.

    In my opinion, fear of the law is enough to maintain it for most people (most people don't want to go to jail for many practical reasons) and that's definitely not moral.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 03-14-11 at 12:31 AM.

  3. #173
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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    If you think its normal to be gay, thats on you. I don't.
    It's perfectly normal for gays to be gay. They don't know what it's like to be straight... and yet, I so rarely hear gays announcing that it's not normal to be straight!

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    OK... well that's nothing more than your opinion.
    Can't I say the same about you?

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Yes, I agree, so long as you are not implying any negative connotation in the use of the word deviant.
    As long as you also have no negative connotation to deviant, I would agree.

    So, based on this definition of deviant, do you think that we should legislate any restrictions on lefthandedness of being Jewish in the US?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    Can't I say the same about you?
    Sure. But there is a difference. I can back up my definition of normal. Can you do the same?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    1 and 4 are certainly morailty. As to 5, they are obeying a laws that are based on societal morality...in all societies that currently exist, that morality is heavily influenced by religion.
    Having given it more thought: fear alone proves that morality is not necessary to maintain law and order. Morality/religion influenced our creation of law, but the main reason we need law, courts and prison is to protect ourselves from each other by 1) Having a place separate criminals from society. 2) Motivating the rest of us not to commit crimes. Even my argument on contributing to society is, in part, based on the fear of that ability to be taken away. If morality was the motivation for us not killing, stealing and so on, then we wouldn't need law. Law operates on the basis that fear of punishment (and fear of losing a job, fear of ruining your life and fear of very practical things) will motivate people not to act.

    I still stand by my other provisions, nonetheless, since they also motivate people to obey the law without morality.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Sure. But there is a difference. I can back up my definition of normal. Can you do the same?
    So your saying that its normal to be gay? Not in the real world.

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    So your saying that its normal to be gay? Not in the real world.
    Same old claims. Same old lack of an explanation or reasons for why you believe what you believe. Still no definition of "normal." When you gonna wake up son?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Maryland Gay Marriage Bill sent back to cmte. Shelved for this year at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
    So your saying that its normal to be gay? Not in the real world.
    I'll ask you again. Define normal.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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