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Thread: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then resettle them yourself. We're accepting those who almost certainly should not have been imprisoned in the first place. I'm guessing I've been closer to being on the receving end of a terrorist atrocity than most (two, to be precise) but I don't make it my excuse for jettisoning my commitment to the rule of law, respect for human rights and belief in the basic standards of behaviour enshrined in the Geneva Convention. When attacked I believe we do not defeat a brutal and uncivilised enemy by becoming as brutal and uncivilised as them, and I will not engage in semantic hypocrisy trying to pretend that torture really isn't torture and that an enemy combatant really isn't a POW.
    "Almost certainly should not have been imprisoned"?

    The fact is that you don't know at all but are just guessing and are willing to risk that others will not be killed because you can then pretend to take some high road.

    But in fact people have been killed by released Gitmo detainees who "almost certainly should not have been imprisoned", and were then released. Other individuals and their families then paid the price for this ignorance.

    Pentagon: Ex-Gitmo detainees resume terror acts - CNN

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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then resettle them yourself.
    We did, right there in Gitmo. Where they recieve 3 squares a day, cable tv, religious respect, and better food than I have as a free American. Oh, also free health care.

    And Obama isn't changing that.......lol

    We're accepting those who almost certainly should not have been imprisoned in the first place.
    And you know this how? Because their reviews before a board said that some things couldn't be admitted? Quite a gamble if you ask me.

    'm guessing I've been closer to being on the receving end of a terrorist atrocity than most (two, to be precise) but I don't make it my excuse for jettisoning my commitment to the rule of law, respect for human rights and belief in the basic standards of behaviour enshrined in the Geneva Convention.
    Geneva doesn't apply to them. Never did.

    When attacked I believe we do not defeat a brutal and uncivilised enemy by becoming as brutal and uncivilised as them
    They laugh at your hesitance.

    and I will not engage in semantic hypocrisy trying to pretend that torture really isn't torture and that an enemy combatant really isn't a POW.
    Nah, just stick to the real hypocrisy that will do nicely.

    Tell me, if Spain is so humanitarian and magnanimous in their endeavors, then why not take Sherif El-Mashad?


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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    "Almost certainly should not have been imprisoned"?

    The fact is that you don't know at all but are just guessing and are willing to risk that others will not be killed because you can then pretend to take some high road.

    But in fact people have been killed by released Gitmo detainees who "almost certainly should not have been imprisoned", and were then released. Other individuals and their families then paid the price for this ignorance.

    Pentagon: Ex-Gitmo detainees resume terror acts - CNN
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And you know this how? Because their reviews before a board said that some things couldn't be admitted? Quite a gamble if you ask me.
    Well, the Bush administration admitted 200 of the 600 were innocent. The Obama administration have admitted a further 85 were innocent and that's without considering the cases of the children imprisoned there.

    The innocent victims of Gitmo

    Geneva doesn't apply to them. Never did.
    Says your lot.

    They laugh at your hesitance.
    They may do, because they are barbaric and uncivilised, no?

    Nah, just stick to the real hypocrisy that will do nicely.
    Rich coming from you.

    Tell me, if Spain is so humanitarian and magnanimous in their endeavors, then why not take Sherif El-Mashad?
    I've no idea who they have or have not offered to take.
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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, the Bush administration admitted 200 of the 600 were innocent. The Obama administration have admitted a further 85 were innocent and that's without considering the cases of the children imprisoned there.
    But they weren't innocent or they wouldn't have gone on to kill others. That is quite clear.

    Bush was weak and responded to the cries that these guys should be released, and they then went on to kill more innocent people. Obama is doing the same, though perhaps he learned something from the Bush errors.

    Trying to curry political favour and appear "humanitarian" has caused the deaths of a great many people. I don't think Bush looks good for this hypocrisy and neither does Obama. Europe, of course, is an international basket case with no clear directions of where its going or what it wants and only knows how to point fingers at the US, as though they can assume any moral high ground in the fight against terrorism. That's as ridiculous as releasing terrorists.

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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But they weren't innocent or they wouldn't have gone on to kill others. That is quite clear.
    What is quite clear from your article is that 18 have returned (or more likely, turned) to the conflict. That's bad, but unsurprising. Some of those guys were committed insurgents. Some, like those jailed in civilian prisons, go in for minor offences and come out hardened criminals. Some of those who went in were children at a particularly impressionable age. You think they would come out thinking positively about the West? Hell, I think a huge number of people who had or have nothing whatever to do with Afghanistan, Iraq, Islam or the US now have a significantly worse opinion of Western civilisation as a result of the cumulative effects of Extraordinary Rendition, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Basra, Pul-e-Charkhi and so on.

    My problem with the whole Gitmo affair is two-fold:
    1. Despite what you seem to be insinuating, I'm not against the fact that they locked up some dangerous terrorists, but that they failed to prosecute them, and then some of those who clearly were committed to terrorism, they released.
    2. That they arrested a lot of people, including children, on sketchy evidence and then treated them brutally in Gitmo.


    Trying to curry political favour and appear "humanitarian" has caused the deaths of a great many people. I don't think Bush looks good for this hypocrisy and neither does Obama. Europe, of course, is an international basket case with no clear directions of where its going or what it wants and only knows how to point fingers at the US, as though they can assume any moral high ground in the fight against terrorism. That's as ridiculous as releasing terrorists.
    Your customary anti-European blather means nothing.
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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Well then, Kane is right. You are a miserable excuse for a liberal.
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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    What is quite clear from your article is that 18 have returned (or more likely, turned) to the conflict. That's bad, but unsurprising.
    You are taking the most optimistic and unrealistic view, which is in line with all those who feel terrorists or suspected terrorists should be released.The article says

    "Since 2007, more than 100 detainees were released, significantly more than in previous years, according to Pentagon officials. According to the statistics, of the 61 former detainees that are believed to have returned to fighting, 18 have been officially confirmed while 43 are suspected, Morrell said".

    That is a suspected 61% failure rate. Pretty serious stuff when we are dealing with terrorists intent on murdering as many innocent people as possible. But you appear to believe that releasing them is more important than public safety, which is all part of your high road, I suppose.
    Some of those guys were committed insurgents. Some, like those jailed in civilian prisons, go in for minor offences and come out hardened criminals. Some of those who went in were children at a particularly impressionable age. You think they would come out thinking positively about the West? Hell, I think a huge number of people who had or have nothing whatever to do with Afghanistan, Iraq, Islam or the US now have a significantly worse opinion of Western civilisation as a result of the cumulative effects of Extraordinary Rendition, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Basra, Pul-e-Charkhi and so on.
    These guys were caught in very incriminating circumstances and not removed from their day jobs or their mothers arms. Why terrorists should get the benefits of any doubts and the West having to take all the criticism is a modern mystery, despite the Left having been on the wrong side of history for generations now.
    My problem with the whole Gitmo affair is two-fold:
    1. Despite what you seem to be insinuating, I'm not against the fact that they locked up some dangerous terrorists, but that they failed to prosecute them, and then some of those who clearly were committed to terrorism, they released.
    2. That they arrested a lot of people, including children, on sketchy evidence and then treated them brutally in Gitmo.
    You really know nothing about conditions at Gitmo, do you?

    Your customary anti-European blather means nothing.
    As you are only being critical of American leaders, as is your custom, why not mention the obvious failure of European leaders? Where do they fit in on the international war on terror?

    The Left Wing Eurowhiners will moan constantly about American flaws and American leadership but point out the European hypocrisies and they again go into their childish pout. What losers you are.

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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You are taking the most optimistic and unrealistic view, which is in line with all those who feel terrorists or suspected terrorists should be released.The article says

    "Since 2007, more than 100 detainees were released, significantly more than in previous years, according to Pentagon officials. According to the statistics, of the 61 former detainees that are believed to have returned to fighting, 18 have been officially confirmed while 43 are suspected, Morrell said".
    Well, when suspicions are turned into proof let's talk again.

    That is a suspected 61% failure rate. Pretty serious stuff when we are dealing with terrorists intent on murdering as many innocent people as possible. But you appear to believe that releasing them is more important than public safety, which is all part of your high road, I suppose.
    You did not have to be an active terrorist operative to get picked up and shipped out. Indeed it's clear they could have done with being a little more accurate in who they detained. Some detainees were merely enemy soldiers, some were complete innocents and some were kids of 14. I notice you have nothing to say about them.

    These guys were caught in very incriminating circumstances and not removed from their day jobs or their mothers arms. Why terrorists should get the benefits of any doubts and the West having to take all the criticism is a modern mystery, despite the Left having been on the wrong side of history for generations now.
    More meaningless partisan blather.

    You really know nothing about conditions at Gitmo, do you?
    Clearly, neither do you my Canuck friend, or are they giving friendly Canadians guided tours? I recommend this book, not to you obviously, but to anyone interested in a balanced view.
    Amazon.com: Five Years of My Life: An Innocent Man in Guantanamo (9780230603745): Murat Kurnaz: Books

    As you are only being critical of American leaders, as is your custom, why not mention the obvious failure of European leaders? Where do they fit in on the international war on terror?
    Here you go again. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am far more critical of Bliar, Aznar, Howard and those willing sheep who colluded in the illegal activities we've been discussing. I'm critical of those other countries that assisted in the illegal rendition flights, especially the Arab states such as Morocco and Saudi Arabia, but what can you expect from dictatorships?

    The Left Wing Eurowhiners will moan constantly about American flaws and American leadership but point out the European hypocrisies and they again go into their childish pout. What losers you are.
    Your childish hot air ignores the fact that without European help Bush would never have been able to undertake his neo-con adventures. I'd like to think that my take on these matters was a majoritarian opinion over here, but despite your ignorant misinformation, European leaders are more than willing to shut up, if not actively support any and every US foreign policy mistake.
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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    That they arrested a lot of people, including children, on sketchy evidence and then treated them brutally in Gitmo.
    February 20, 2009|From Barbara Starr CNN Pentagon Correspondent


    Guantanamo Bay's detention center is being reviewed by the Obama administration after detainees claimed abuse.
    A new Defense Department report concludes that the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, treats detainees humanely, according to a department official with knowledge of the report.

    The Defense Department review also recommends that high-value and violent detainees be allowed to pray and have recreation time in groups of three, the official said.


    Gitmo detainees treated humanely, U.S. report says - CNN
    Obama and Democrats have been running around the world apologizing for our actions, and detention facilities including Guantanamo Bay. As far as they are concerned, Camp Delta displays the worst of what America is, and supposedly the rest of the world sees it that way too. Until of course, we start to see the soon-to-come news reports about what life in a Supermax facility is like for the prisoners living the life today.

    Whoops.

    Guantanamo detainees treated MUCH better than prisoners in USA | Radio Vice Online
    What are you talking about. Prisoners at Gitmo have it better than our own citizen prisoners do here....

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    Re: PJ Crowley: Bradley Manning's treatment by US 'stupid'

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If you had wanted to support your own argument, there possibly isn't a worst way you could have done it.

    Those Code Pink nuts are the equivalent of leftwing birthers. Would've been fine if you had just mentioned Crowley.
    Otherwise known as "how to loose credibility on an issue instantly: When Code Pink demonstrates".
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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