• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

Jetboogieman said:
Oh how little you know...

You only know what the media tells you. Not the reality.

As my best friends mother who was a Koran Scholar said "This Bin Laden, he is bull****!".
Click to expand...

Actually we know many Muslims feel the same way but instead of saying it privately to you they should be saying it publicly. If they are afraid. or at all reluctant to say anything publicly about problems in Islam, how can the public know how deeply the problem persists?

There are some brave Muslims who are publicly speaking out, most of them women it seems, but they often live under the threat of death. All the problems and attitudes in the Muslim community should be made public, which is why these hearings are a good thing. The last thing we need is to pretend there isn't a problem and hide it away hoping it will magically disappear. That's just more denial.
 
Grant said:
Actually we know many Muslims feel the same way but instead of saying it privately to you they should be saying it publicly. If they are afraid. or at all reluctant to say anything publicly about problems in Islam, how can the public know how deeply the problem persists?

There are some brave Muslims who are publicly speaking out, most of them women it seems, but they often live under the threat of death. All the problems and attitudes in the Muslim community should be made public, which is why these hearings are a good thing. The last thing we need is to pretend there isn't a problem and hide it away hoping it will magically disappear. That's just more denial.
Click to expand...

It's not the responsibility of Muslims to speak out publicly just like it was never the responsibility of Christians to speak about the KKK, just like it isn't the responsibility of whites to speak about the Aryan Brotherhood. It's the responsibility of the public to use common sense and not attach the actions of radicals to an entire population. I was able to do that without any Muslim confirming publicly that they weren't a terrorist. Any time you make sweeping generalizations about a population, it's an alarm that you don't know enough about them.
 
apdst said:
If more non-radical Muslims took an active interest in exposing radical Muslims, then none of this would be neccessary.

Let's face it, the folks that are going to spot radical Muslims first, are other Muslims. Obviously, radicalization within the Muslim community is a problem. Just as obviously, non-radical Muslims aren't stepping up to deal with it.
Click to expand...

Muslim communities in the West speak out all the time in public, whenever there was another incident caused by radical Muslims. At least I often see that in Germany, I assume it's the same in America. When there was a terrorist attack, within the day most Muslim communities are issuing public statements of condemnation.

The problem is, people don't listen. They don't want to hear it. When I presented according links on this forum, there were even some islamophobic people claiming "they are lying".
 
German guy said:
Muslim communities in the West speak out all the time in public, whenever there was another incident caused by radical Muslims. At least I often see that in Germany, I assume it's the same in America. When there was a terrorist attack, within the day most Muslim communities are issuing public statements of condemnation.

The problem is, people don't listen. They don't want to hear it. When I presented according links on this forum, there were even some islamophobic people claiming "they are lying".
Click to expand...

Condemnation is fine, but the next logical step is action of some sort. What actions do the Muslim communities take as a result of attacks and are those actions public?
 
Ockham said:
Condemnation is fine, but the next logical step is action of some sort. What actions do the Muslim communities take as a result of attacks and are those actions public?
Click to expand...

Actions?

Tell me what actions are they supposed to take?

Tell me, what actions did Christians take against Warren Jeffs hmm?

400 children seized from polygamy sect in Texas after claims of abuse - Times Online

Where were the marches against such things by Christians.

Why do I always have to hear from people like you "where are ths muslims marching against terrorism".

Where are the Christians marching against terrorism? Where are the Jews marching against Terrorism?

What must they do? Go into every muslims household and ask "Dear fellow muslim, we think your son might be a terrorist, if he is, we're here to um... condemn him?".

It makes no sense.
 
Jetboogieman said:
What must they do? Go into every muslims household and ask "Dear fellow muslim, we think your son might be a terrorist, if he is, we're here to um... condemn him?".

It makes no sense.
Click to expand...

That's because they are racists. Their hatred of Muslims is irrational, so the demands they have can never be fulfilled.

Why bother trying to reason with these people?
 
Jetboogieman said:
Actions?

Tell me what actions are they supposed to take?
Click to expand...
It could be outreach, it could be a summit of discussion within the Muslim community only, with both Sunni and Shia. It could be a committment to not identify with radicals and to advise those who exhibit violent behaviors. You know, small things from that Imams and mosques have the ability to control and take action upon.

Jetboogieman said:
Tell me, what actions did Christians take against Warren Jeffs hmm?
Click to expand...
They should take the same actions, if they did not.


Jetboogieman said:
Where were the marches against such things by Christians.
Click to expand...
I have no idea.

Jetboogieman said:
Why do I always have to hear from people like you "where are ths muslims marching against terrorism".
Click to expand...
I'm not calling for marches, I'm calling for reasonable actions taken within the Muslim community, and I'm asking of any actions like these were taken and if they were public.

Jetboogieman said:
Where are the Christians marching against terrorism? Where are the Jews marching against Terrorism?
Click to expand...
Where are the suicide bombing Methodists? Or those evil Lutheren's who always get caught making pipe bombs and IEDs. Oh that's right... Why is it that I always hear from people like you who stick their heads in the sand and ignore the facts? I'm not asking for anything unreasonable, or is discussing such moderate actions unreasonable to you?

Jetboogieman said:
What must they do? Go into every muslims household and ask "Dear fellow muslim, we think your son might be a terrorist, if he is, we're here to um... condemn him?".
Click to expand...
Already answered.

Jetboogieman said:
It makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Sure it does, when you put your ideology aside and discuss things calmly and ask for reasonable action. When you're ready to do that, let me know.
 
Guy Incognito said:
That's because they are racists
Click to expand...

They are not racist.

I don't think Oakham is a racist, I just think he doesn't understand.

To call someone a racist is far too easy.

There are people on this board who were racist against muslims, and there names need not be mentioned here, but Oakham is not one of them.

Fundamentally, the flaw people are making is finding causation in Islam, where there is none, Islam is used as a tool by AL Queada, but ultimately, their goals have, and always shall be political.

They do not do what they do BECAUSE they are muslim.
 
Ockham said:
I'm not calling for marches, I'm calling for reasonable actions taken within the Muslim community, and I'm asking of any actions like these were taken and if they were public.
Click to expand...

Describe for me please "reasonable Actions".

And why is it their problem that some assholes twist their religion.
 
Anyone who is afraid of more information and disclosure has either an agenda or something to hide beyond that. I will agree that this could possibly turn into a witch-hunt, which normally would be a bad thing. However, if the country is overrun with witches, it would be the solution.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Describe for me please "reasonable Actions".

And why is it their problem that some assholes twist their religion.
Click to expand...

I already identified some of those reasonable actions in the first part of my previous post. It's their problem because those assholes are claiming Islam as their reason for killing people and / or their terrorist act. Those assholes hijacked Islam and I guess I'm surprised the Muslim communities around the world are not pissed off about it - or if they are, that they're not taking some of those reasonable actions. :shrug:

The get pissed off quick about Western powers being on Islamic land though.
 
Jetboogieman said:
They are not racist.

I don't think Oakham is a racist, I just think he doesn't understand.

To call someone a racist is far too easy.

There are people on this board who were racist against muslims, and there names need not be mentioned here, but Oakham is not one of them.

Fundamentally, the flaw people are making is finding causation in Islam, where there is none, Islam is used as a tool by AL Queada, but ultimately, their goals have, and always shall be political.

They do not do what they do BECAUSE they are muslim.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.
 
However, if the country is overrun with witches, it would be the solution.
Click to expand...

It would be if that were true, but it's not.

I think calling for "moderate Muslims" to condemn radical/fundamentalist Islamic violence is only useful so long as radical Muslims care about what the moderates have to say. For the most part most moderate Muslim Americans have nothing to do with radical Islam, unless for instance if it's their kids that are being recruited for Al-Shabaab or whatnot.
 
Jetboogieman said:
They are not racist.

I don't think Oakham is a racist, I just think he doesn't understand.

To call someone a racist is far too easy.
Click to expand...

I disagree. It's hard to have to face up to the fact that some people are motivated by irrational hatred. You can call it racism or xenophobia or whatever you like, but the fact is they are not motivated by rationality, but by animalistic hatred and fear. You are as likely to succeed in reasoning with these folks as you re to succeed in reasoning with a junkyard dog. They apply exactly the same amount of logic to their hatred.

Your continued defense of racists is really starting to puzzle me.
 
Last edited:
Ockham said:
Condemnation is fine, but the next logical step is action of some sort. What actions do the Muslim communities take as a result of attacks and are those actions public?
Click to expand...

Do you expect action from all Christian people whenever one of them kills an abortion provider or bombs a clinic? If so, what have prominent Christian leaders done to stop these things?
 
Ockham said:
I already identified some of those reasonable actions in the first part of my previous post. It's their problem because those assholes are claiming Islam as their reason for killing people and / or their terrorist act. Those assholes hijacked Islam and I guess I'm surprised the Muslim communities around the world are not pissed off about it - or if they are, that they're not taking some of those reasonable actions. :shrug:
Click to expand...

But again, all this assumes Islam is the reason they do what they do, which they do not.

They do use it as a tool for political ends.

Imagine now, just for a second, you're a young man in Afghanistan, you have nothing, and all you've been told from the time you're 5 is that the Americans are bad, Islam is the only way, and the only way to achieve victory in this world is to blow yourself up.... and he's told this by old men who have no interest in dying themselves because they are cowards hiding behind the religion they have twisted, and are their goals to usher in a new dawn for Islam? No. Are their goals to shift the invaders out of their country so they can take it back and have their power again? Yes.

You see, no "Summit" no "Condemnation" is gonna fix something like that.
 
Ockham said:
I already identified some of those reasonable actions in the first part of my previous post. It's their problem because those assholes are claiming Islam as their reason for killing people and / or their terrorist act. Those assholes hijacked Islam and I guess I'm surprised the Muslim communities around the world are not pissed off about it - or if they are, that they're not taking some of those reasonable actions. :shrug:

The get pissed off quick about Western powers being on Islamic land though.
Click to expand...

But why should they take actions when they know that they are not to blame. That would be exhausting and in many ways, counterproductive, because many Muslims have come out against it and it still isn't enough. It wouldn't make sense for all whites to continually come out against the Aryan Brotherhood, all blacks to come out against the Bloods, etc.

The information about Islam and its members is available for everyone to see. Why is not the responsibility of those who are concerned about Muslims to go and find that information and calm their own fears?
 
Hatuey said:
Do you expect action from all Christian people whenever one of them kills an abortion provider or bombs a clinic? If so, what have prominent Christian leaders done to stop these things?
Click to expand...

If there were, for the past 30 years Christians who kill and suicide bomb other tens of thousands of people all over the world and who claim Christianity as their PRIMARY reason for carrying out those attacks, absolutely I would expect it.
 
Jetboogieman said:
But again, all this assumes Islam is the reason they do what they do, which they do not.

They do use it as a tool for political ends.

Imagine now, just for a second, you're a young man in Afghanistan, you have nothing, and all you've been told from the time you're 5 is that the Americans are bad, Islam is the only way, and the only way to achieve victory in this world is to blow yourself up.... and he's told this by old men who have no interest in dying themselves because they are cowards hiding behind the religion they have twisted, and are their goals to usher in a new dawn for Islam? No. Are their goals to shift the invaders out of their country so they can take it back and have their power again? Yes.
Click to expand...
But we're not talking about Afghans, we're talking about Al Qaeda using citing Islam as you point out, for political reasons, as the primary reason to kill Westerners, and recruiting world wide, those in the Muslim communities around the world, who wish to join their cause and die for Islam. I agree with your Afghan view, but that's not what these hearings were about and that's not what I'm citing as a reasonable action. I see it as reasonable in America, for mosques to take the actions I laid out. How are those actions in America's mosques unreasonable?
 
theplaydrive said:
But why should they take actions when they know that they are not to blame.
Click to expand...
Their motivation is not due to blame, their motiviation is to distance themselves from and guide their congregations away from such groups and individuals which they DO condemn.

theplaydrive said:
That would be exhausting and in many ways, counterproductive, because many Muslims have come out against it and it still isn't enough. It wouldn't make sense for all whites to continually come out against the Aryan Brotherhood, all blacks to come out against the Bloods, etc.
Click to expand...
You think that conversation doesn't happen in Churches and communities where Aryan's and Bloods exist? Of course they do ... those conversations need to occur where we already know radicals lived, prayed and met.

For example, the Buffalo Six were arrested in 2002 - if that outreach and guidance were adopted by mosques in the Buffalo area, the arrests in 2011 may never have happened. All I'm asking for is some pro-active reasonable action here. Why is that so bad?

theplaydrive said:
The information about Islam and its members is available for everyone to see. Why is not the responsibility of those who are concerned about Muslims to go and find that information and calm their own fears?
Click to expand...
I don't know what this means exactly...
 
Ockham said:
You think that conversation doesn't happen in Churches and communities where Aryan's and Bloods exist? Of course they do ... those conversations need to occur where we already know radicals lived, prayed and met.
Click to expand...

This is the sort of irrationality I'm talking about. When you try to talk with racists, you are met with a constantly moving target, that changes depending on the race or ethnic background of the people in question.

First the bigot says all mosques should condemn terrorism (as if they don't). Then, when confronted with the fact that all Christian churches don't condemn Christian terrorists, the bigot moves the target. Now "conversations" against terrorism is enough (as if those aren't happening in mosques). All the while, they are either unaware of their hypocrisy and equivocation or they are willfully ignoring it.

You cannot argue against a moving target and you cannot reason with racists.
 
Last edited:
Ockham said:
Their motivation is not due to blame, their motiviation is to distance themselves from and guide their congregations away from such groups and individuals which they DO condemn.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. 1. Many Muslims speak out all the time and condemn every radical action right after it happens. 2. Most Muslims distance themselves everyday by living their lives.

You think that conversation doesn't happen in Churches and communities where Aryan's and Bloods exist? Of course they do ... those conversations need to occur where we already know radicals lived, prayed and met.
Click to expand...

Muslims have already had these conversations. We know that they aren't all radical. They can't keep apologizing and condemning and reaching out to communities and I wouldn't even want them to reach out to communities who are so incredibly disrespectful. I guess the reason I have a hard time with your arguments is because I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid of terrorists who are pissed off because we're on their property.

For example, the Buffalo Six were arrested in 2002 - if that outreach and guidance were adopted by mosques in the Buffalo area, the arrests in 2011 may never have happened. All I'm asking for is some pro-active reasonable action here. Why is that so bad?
Click to expand...

edit: They don't need to be pro-active. It's ignorant people who need to be proactive at educating themselves.

I don't know what this means exactly...
Click to expand...

I meant any person can go online and find several things: 1. Every condemnation of terrorism issued by a Muslim organization 2. Every charity started by a Muslim organization 3. The number of Muslims in the world vs. the number terrorists who are Muslim. If people find all of that information on their own, they soothe their own fears.
 
Last edited:
theplaydrive said:
Here's the thing. 1. Many Muslims speak out all the time and condemn every radical action right after it happens. 2. Most Muslims distance themselves everyday by living their lives.
Click to expand...
Good, we agree. Now about those reasonable actions...

theplaydrive said:
Muslims have already had these conversations. We know that they aren't all radical. They can't keep apologizing and condemning and reaching out to communities and I wouldn't even want them to reach out to communities who are so incredibly disrespectful. I guess the reason I have a hard time with your arguments is because I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid of terrorists who are pissed off because we're on their property.
Click to expand...
I don't want their continued apologies, I want them to start talking and guiding each other as to what is and is not Islam - and to take actions when a radical cannot be guided.

theplaydrive said:
edit: They don't need to be pro-active. It's ignorant people who need to be proactive at educating themselves.
Click to expand...
It's not everyone else but them, it's INCLUDING them. You're taking a contrary view that say, it's not their problem it's everyone elses... I disagree.

theplaydrive said:
I meant any person can go online and find several things: 1. Every condemnation of terrorism issued by a Muslim organization 2. Every charity started by a Muslim organization 3. The number of Muslims in the world vs. the number terrorists who are Muslim. If people find all of that information on their own, they soothe their own fears.
Click to expand...

This isn't about fear.
 
hazlnut said:
Here we go -- the ol' "quick, change the subject and avoid addressing the issue" -- the bold fringe-right move of RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
Click to expand...

Pretty hilarious considering how many times you've tried to change the subject to this point (IRA and Barney Fife). Not to mention the typical name calling in lieu of any constructive discussion on the matter.
 
Ockham said:
I don't want their continued apologies, I want them to start talking and guiding each other as to what is and is not Islam - and to take actions when a radical cannot be guided.
Click to expand...

The majority of Muslims know what Islam is. They can't be responsible for people that go awry just like Christians can be responsible for every person who kills a doctor that provides abortion or who want so kill gay people. For regular Muslims, their knowledge and practice of Islam is enough to not behave violently just as it is for Christians.

When a radical cannot be guided, they become a government problem. Let's not forget that in some, if not many, cases radical Muslims will condemn and reject the moderate ones as well. It's not like all Muslims listen to each other or even have the capacity to influence each other.

It's not everyone else but them, it's INCLUDING them. You're taking a contrary view that say, it's not their problem it's everyone elses... I disagree.
Click to expand...

I think you're expecting more than is possible to give. These people's lives can't be dominated by trying to prevent people who they have nothing in common with but the name of their religion.

This isn't about fear.
Click to expand...

What is it about?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom