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Thread: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

  1. #171
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You think that conversation doesn't happen in Churches and communities where Aryan's and Bloods exist? Of course they do ... those conversations need to occur where we already know radicals lived, prayed and met.
    This is the sort of irrationality I'm talking about. When you try to talk with racists, you are met with a constantly moving target, that changes depending on the race or ethnic background of the people in question.

    First the bigot says all mosques should condemn terrorism (as if they don't). Then, when confronted with the fact that all Christian churches don't condemn Christian terrorists, the bigot moves the target. Now "conversations" against terrorism is enough (as if those aren't happening in mosques). All the while, they are either unaware of their hypocrisy and equivocation or they are willfully ignoring it.

    You cannot argue against a moving target and you cannot reason with racists.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 03-14-11 at 01:10 PM.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Their motivation is not due to blame, their motiviation is to distance themselves from and guide their congregations away from such groups and individuals which they DO condemn.
    Here's the thing. 1. Many Muslims speak out all the time and condemn every radical action right after it happens. 2. Most Muslims distance themselves everyday by living their lives.

    You think that conversation doesn't happen in Churches and communities where Aryan's and Bloods exist? Of course they do ... those conversations need to occur where we already know radicals lived, prayed and met.
    Muslims have already had these conversations. We know that they aren't all radical. They can't keep apologizing and condemning and reaching out to communities and I wouldn't even want them to reach out to communities who are so incredibly disrespectful. I guess the reason I have a hard time with your arguments is because I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid of terrorists who are pissed off because we're on their property.

    For example, the Buffalo Six were arrested in 2002 - if that outreach and guidance were adopted by mosques in the Buffalo area, the arrests in 2011 may never have happened. All I'm asking for is some pro-active reasonable action here. Why is that so bad?
    edit: They don't need to be pro-active. It's ignorant people who need to be proactive at educating themselves.

    I don't know what this means exactly...
    I meant any person can go online and find several things: 1. Every condemnation of terrorism issued by a Muslim organization 2. Every charity started by a Muslim organization 3. The number of Muslims in the world vs. the number terrorists who are Muslim. If people find all of that information on their own, they soothe their own fears.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 03-14-11 at 01:19 PM.

  3. #173
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Here's the thing. 1. Many Muslims speak out all the time and condemn every radical action right after it happens. 2. Most Muslims distance themselves everyday by living their lives.
    Good, we agree. Now about those reasonable actions...

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Muslims have already had these conversations. We know that they aren't all radical. They can't keep apologizing and condemning and reaching out to communities and I wouldn't even want them to reach out to communities who are so incredibly disrespectful. I guess the reason I have a hard time with your arguments is because I am not afraid of Muslims, I am afraid of terrorists who are pissed off because we're on their property.
    I don't want their continued apologies, I want them to start talking and guiding each other as to what is and is not Islam - and to take actions when a radical cannot be guided.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    edit: They don't need to be pro-active. It's ignorant people who need to be proactive at educating themselves.
    It's not everyone else but them, it's INCLUDING them. You're taking a contrary view that say, it's not their problem it's everyone elses... I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I meant any person can go online and find several things: 1. Every condemnation of terrorism issued by a Muslim organization 2. Every charity started by a Muslim organization 3. The number of Muslims in the world vs. the number terrorists who are Muslim. If people find all of that information on their own, they soothe their own fears.
    This isn't about fear.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Here we go -- the ol' "quick, change the subject and avoid addressing the issue" -- the bold fringe-right move of RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
    Pretty hilarious considering how many times you've tried to change the subject to this point (IRA and Barney Fife). Not to mention the typical name calling in lieu of any constructive discussion on the matter.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post

    I don't want their continued apologies, I want them to start talking and guiding each other as to what is and is not Islam - and to take actions when a radical cannot be guided.
    The majority of Muslims know what Islam is. They can't be responsible for people that go awry just like Christians can be responsible for every person who kills a doctor that provides abortion or who want so kill gay people. For regular Muslims, their knowledge and practice of Islam is enough to not behave violently just as it is for Christians.

    When a radical cannot be guided, they become a government problem. Let's not forget that in some, if not many, cases radical Muslims will condemn and reject the moderate ones as well. It's not like all Muslims listen to each other or even have the capacity to influence each other.

    It's not everyone else but them, it's INCLUDING them. You're taking a contrary view that say, it's not their problem it's everyone elses... I disagree.
    I think you're expecting more than is possible to give. These people's lives can't be dominated by trying to prevent people who they have nothing in common with but the name of their religion.

    This isn't about fear.
    What is it about?

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The majority of Muslims know what Islam is. They can't be responsible for people that go awry just like Christians can be responsible for every person who kills a doctor that provides abortion or who want so kill gay people. For regular Muslims, their knowledge and practice of Islam is enough to not behave violently just as it is for Christians.
    I'm not asking for them to be responsible, I'm asking for them to take reasonable actions to prevent a Buffalo 2002 and a Buffalo 2011.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I think you're expecting more than is possible to give. These people's lives can't be dominated by trying to prevent people who they have nothing in common with but the name of their religion.
    I'm not asking for it to be dominated - how about 3 hours a month? How about the uptown Mosque talks to a downtown Mosque and the Imam's have coffee or tea once in a while? There's nothing in the Qur'an that prevents such a thing. If moderation is what people of all religions are all about, I don't see this as unreasonable. If it's not happening now, it should.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    What is it about?
    It's about not letting extremists hijack a religion and it's about peaceful people standing up for what they believe.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #177
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I have not followed this hearing well enough to know if that's the case, but while you are probably right it doesn't increase or decrease the number of radicals, the problem some apparently have with it is their sorrow it might fuel the sentiments of those who indiscriminately blame Muslims in general, and thus will result in more discrimination and ostracism of Muslims, including those who aren't radical.

    Personally, I believe we should be aware of our responsibility in these regards when we debate the problem. We should be careful to avoid broad-brush generalizations and make sure we don't fuel sentiments that will result in the discrimination of non-radical Muslims. No idea if this hearing was executed in a sufficiently responsible manner.
    Here you go. Please take the time to at least listen to the witnesses, Biedso, Bihi, Baca, and Jasser so you can judge for yourself.
    Some Dems were also there demonizing the hearings like some on this thread. However, I think to make an informed opinion they should at least know what went on.

    They made it easy. You can just click on the speakers you want to hear. No need to sit through the more than 3 hrs like a couple of us did.

    Radicalization in the U.S. Muslim Community, Organizations Panel - C-SPAN Video Library
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
    1/27/12

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It could be outreach, it could be a summit of discussion within the Muslim community only, with both Sunni and Shia. It could be a committment to not identify with radicals and to advise those who exhibit violent behaviors. You know, small things from that Imams and mosques have the ability to control and take action upon.


    I'm not calling for marches, I'm calling for reasonable actions taken within the Muslim community, and I'm asking of any actions like these were taken and if they were public.

    .
    Bihi (witness at the hearings) has been doing outreach. Hopefully it will spread.
    Radicalization in the U.S. Muslim Community, Organizations Panel - C-SPAN Video Library
    How did jamal bana end up going from minneapolis to somalia to get murdered?
    Another Somali-American killed waging jihad in Somalia

    Spokesman: Third American Killed In Somalia
    Another Minnesota man recruited to join an Al Qaeda-linked group in Somalia has been killed in the war-torn African country, according to a spokesman for the mans family. Family members of 20-year-old Jamal Bana found photos of his bloody body online, according to Abdirizak Bihi, who has represented many of the families whose loved ones left the Minneapolis area last year to join al-Shabaab, which has been warring with the moderate Somali government since 2006.The FBI has been looking into how more than 20 young, Somali-American men from the Twin Cities and elsewhere were recruited to train and possibly fight alongside al-Shabaab.Like many families of men who left unannounced for Somalia, Banas mother had been regularly searching the Internet for any information about her son in Somalia, according to Bihi.
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
    1/27/12

  9. #179
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    But why should they take actions when they know that they are not to blame. That would be exhausting and in many ways, counterproductive, because many Muslims have come out against it and it still isn't enough. It wouldn't make sense for all whites to continually come out against the Aryan Brotherhood, all blacks to come out against the Bloods, etc.

    The information about Islam and its members is available for everyone to see. Why is not the responsibility of those who are concerned about Muslims to go and find that information and calm their own fears?
    Jasser, ( Muslim witness at the hearings) disagrees with you. He says Muslims are the only ones who can solve the problem of youth being radicalized in America.
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
    1/27/12

  10. #180
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Bihi (witness at the hearings) has been doing outreach. Hopefully it will spread.
    Radicalization in the U.S. Muslim Community, Organizations Panel - C-SPAN Video Library
    How did jamal bana end up going from minneapolis to somalia to get murdered?
    Another Somali-American killed waging jihad in Somalia

    Spokesman: Third American Killed In Somalia
    Another Minnesota man recruited to join an Al Qaeda-linked group in Somalia has been killed in the war-torn African country, according to a spokesman for the man’s family. Family members of 20-year-old Jamal Bana found photos of his bloody body online, according to Abdirizak Bihi, who has represented many of the families whose loved ones left the Minneapolis area last year to join al-Shabaab, which has been warring with the moderate Somali government since 2006.The FBI has been looking into how more than 20 young, Somali-American men from the Twin Cities and elsewhere were recruited to train and possibly fight alongside al-Shabaab.Like many families of men who left unannounced for Somalia, Bana’s mother had been regularly searching the Internet for any information about her son in Somalia, according to Bihi.
    Exactly. Good info and I think this is a good thing and reasonable.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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