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Thread: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think there's a difference between radical Islam's rhetoric regarding establishing a global caliphate, and reality. It's kind of like Hamas's charter in which they say they want to dismantle Israel as a state. They might say they want to destroy Israel but realistically they know they don't have the capability to do so. Likewise, the radical Islamists might pay lip service to such rhetoric regarding a global caliphate, but in reality they might have more realistic objectives (not sure what those are though).

    We are dealing with people here that still subscribe to 7th century remedies for their condition. Ever heard of "Twelvers" Ahmadinjihad is one. And if Islam is a billion and a half, then just 10% (conservative estimate) are radicalized, that's 1 1/2 million jihadists all believing the worst parts of the Hadith, and Koran as literal in terms of killing non believers. These radicals have the rest of the religion hostage, through intimidation.

    They may not have the means, but they don't care, to die trying is their greatest calling.


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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I've thought about that to and it's obviously impossible for either one of to reach know, but I always assume it works by the same mechanism that makes some racists/white supremacists think that blacks and Jews are the root of their economic problems.

    If you're living in the Middle East and you grow up with a sense of loyalty to the region, population and Islam then the idea that another foreign power, whose military may have killed your relatives or friends, is still on your land may be enough to tip you over. What I've always found interesting about suicide terrorists (al-Qaeda in particular) is that most/many of them are well-educated, have good income and show no signs of mental disorder. We tend to think of extremists as uneducated and poor, but these guys aren't - I can't wrap my head around that.
    Robert Pape wrote an excellent book called 'Dying to Win' where he documents actual cases of suicide bombers. he talks about the fact that they often experienced a traumatic event in their lives, be it a family member who was killed, etc. most cases involve them living under foreign military occupation, and them eventually doing it for political reasons - not religious.

    it's a good read regardless if you agree with the conclusion or not. you can at least take the presented facts and make up your own conclusions.
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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I agree with StillBallin on this one. They claim this in many of their videos and perhaps in their ideal world everyone would be a Muslim like many Christians' ideal world would be all Christians. It's similar to how the Aryan Brotherhood claims to operate on a basis of white superiority and working against all other races. However, the Aryan Brotherhood has worked with Mexican gangs in the drug trade and other aspects. At the end of the day, in spite of their words, the bottom line for them is money. Similarly, a lot of evidence based on thorough studies of al-Qaeda shows that their bottom line is getting the U.S. off of their land.
    I don't have a definitive answer, but do you think that AQ would stop their attacks if the US withdrew its military forces completely from all Muslim countries? This was a poll awhile back, I think.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    We are dealing with people here that still subscribe to 7th century remedies for their condition. Ever heard of "Twelvers" Ahmadinjihad is one. And if Islam is a billion and a half, then just 10% (conservative estimate) are radicalized, that's 1 1/2 million jihadists all believing the worst parts of the Hadith, and Koran as literal in terms of killing non believers. These radicals have the rest of the religion hostage, through intimidation.

    They may not have the means, but they don't care, to die trying is their greatest calling.


    j-mac
    10% would be 150,000,000 Muslims, not 1,500,000. Your estimate is not even supported by anything.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    Robert Pape wrote an excellent book called 'Dying to Win' where he documents actual cases of suicide bombers. he talks about the fact that they often experienced a traumatic event in their lives, be it a family member who was killed, etc. most cases involve them living under foreign military occupation, and them eventually doing it for political reasons - not religious.

    it's a good read regardless if you agree with the conclusion or not. you can at least take the presented facts and make up your own conclusions.

    Facts are always the way to go, however you can also present facts in a skewed manner. For instance, when you speak of Pape speaking on terrorists as "...most cases involve them living under foreign military occupation, and them eventually doing it for political reasons - not religious."

    This can be spun. I haven't read his book, but hope that he doesn't do that.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    Robert Pape wrote an excellent book called 'Dying to Win' where he documents actual cases of suicide bombers. he talks about the fact that they often experienced a traumatic event in their lives, be it a family member who was killed, etc. most cases involve them living under foreign military occupation, and them eventually doing it for political reasons - not religious.

    it's a good read regardless if you agree with the conclusion or not. you can at least take the presented facts and make up your own conclusions.
    Robert Pape was actually one of my professors in college at the University of Chicago. His class 'Strategy' is one of the most popular on campus for people of all majors. I had to read his book for class. The best thing about Pape is that he openly encourages people to disagree because is so confident in his research.

    On our final exam, he gave us extra credit if we disagreed with him. He's not only a good/reliable academic; he's a stand up guy.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Robert Pape was actually one of my professors in college at the University of Chicago. I had to read his book for class. The best thing about Pape is that he openly encourages people to disagree because is so confident in his research.

    On our final exam, he gave us extra credit if we disagreed with him. He's not only a good/reliable academic; he's a stand up guy.
    I've read some of his stuff for an international relations class. He seems to me to be a great academic.

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't have a definitive answer, but do you think that AQ would stop their attacks if the US withdrew its military forces completely from all Muslim countries? This was a poll awhile back, I think.
    I also don't have a definitive opinion, but I'm inclined to say yes. I think that they would still hate us and want us all to die, but I don't think that they would act on that hate. I believe that the actual presence of military, no matter how small or big, is what moves them from thought to action.

    My general opinion on our foreign policy strategy is that we should significantly reduce, if not eliminate, our troops in the region. Al-Qaeda has given three main reasons for attacking us: 1) Occupation 2) Hatred of American values 3) Islam . We can't change the last to, but we can change the first one. I don't see why we shouldn't give it a try.

    What about you?

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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    10% would be 150,000,000 Muslims, not 1,500,000. Your estimate is not even supported by anything.
    Oh, my math is off...So you think your number is better? Tell me, how many muslims in the world do you think are radicalized right now?


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    Re: Muslim 'radicalization' hearing a success, say Rep. Peter King, Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I also don't have a definitive opinion, but I'm inclined to say yes. I think that they would still hate us and want us all to die, but I don't think that they would act on that hate. I believe that the actual presence of military, no matter how small or big, is what moves them from thought to action.

    My general opinion on our foreign policy strategy is that we should significantly reduce, if not eliminate, our troops in the region. Al-Qaeda has given three main reasons for attacking us: 1) Occupation 2) Hatred of American values 3) Islam . We can't change the last to, but we can change the first one. I don't see why we shouldn't give it a try.

    What about you?
    I really don't know one way or the other. I think when you're motivated by something as irrational as the politics of hatred, it's hard to say what will make that group or individual willing to stop. I mean for all the terrorist attacks that have been committed by Al-Qaeda going back to the 90s, it really hasn't come close to reaching its own objective and as a group, AQ hasn't done itself any favors and it's not any closer to achieving it's stated goals. I think all the talk about bleeding America of it's manpower and financial resources is a post-facto objective that they came up with, that has little to do with their real goals. I don't think we're doing ourselves any favors with overseas involvement especially in Iraq, but for all their atrocious actions AQ itself isn't really in a better place either.

    The same things I just said about Al-Qaeda could be said about other radical Islamic terror groups as well.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-11-11 at 09:21 PM.

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