Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 81 to 88 of 88

Thread: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

  1. #81
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I disagree, taking the side of the winner when they won, is weakness,
    No, it's just what you do in diplomacy. How does it show weakness, and to whom do we need to show strength? It isn't our fight. Our tendency to make things all about us is exactly what gets us into trouble in the Arab world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und
    supporting democracy and freedom when the chips are on the table, shows fortitude.
    Except diplomatic recognition doesn't actually do anything to "support democracy and freedom." And even if it did, there is no evidence that what emerges in Libya would in any way resemble a free democracy. This isn't Tunisia or Egypt where there is plenty of reason to be optimistic about a serious democratic transformation. This is a country awash in oil, run by a madman, in the midst of a civil war. I'm sure that the rebels would be better than Gaddafi (as they couldn't possibly be any worse), but I see little reason for optimism that the country will become a democracy.

    As I mentioned, our recent track record of "supporting democracy and freedom when the chips are on the table" is not very good. We supported Georgia against Russia, and the president of Georgia became an autocratic thug. We supported Kosovo against Serbia, and the president of Kosovo became an autocratic thug. We supported democracy in Iraq against Saddam Hussein, and the prime minister of Iraq is currently busy beating and arresting protesters. What makes you think that we would have better luck in Libya?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-11-11 at 06:18 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #82
    Dungeon Master
    Hooter Babe

    DiAnna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,683
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    If France is willing to follow through with humanitarian and military aid to the rebels, more power to them. I would prefer a unified NATO action, because frankly that's the only way the rebels will receive the help they need to win and the only way that the consequences, whatever then are, can be shared by all participating nations.

    I can't even stomach watching news footage of Libya because I know what a horrific bloodbath it is. I felt the same way during the wars in the Balkans, while everyone just sat and watched the slaughter while saying, "tsk-tsk".

  3. #83
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why NATO? It is not NATOs job to be a peace-keeper force, it is to protect its members. No members have been attacked.

    If anything it should be the UN that should be giving the go ahead, and then asking NATO or whoever to carry it out. We have to be very very very careful here, and I fully understand the US in this case.. we NEED the Arab nations especially Tunisia and Egypt to be on board if not asking for out-right intervention. Else it will just look like another arrogant western imperialistic for oil a la Iraq intervention. Yes it is horrible what Gadaffi is doing to his people, but to be brutally frank.. other dictators are doing the same or worse and we are not actively considering intervention there.. but Libya has .. OIL.

    On top of that, there is the problem of logistics. A lot of aircraft are needed and the closest bases are in Italy which is hours away, which makes in forcing a no fly zone quite hard.. the Libyan Air Force can be off the ground and hitting the target and back before NATO or whoever jets get even near. So the jets have to be in constant patrol far from home and that is never good. It would help if they could use Tunisia and Egypt as bases though, but..

    And even if they took out the air force, then the rebels are totally disorganised and they are facing professionally trained troops, so it is far from certain that the rebels would win.

    Personally I think the best would be to kill Gadaffi because then the house of cards would collapse.. or so I suspect.
    With China and Russia having veto power in the UNSC, the UN would not vote to do anything substantive. Both Beijing and Moscow want this rebellion to fail and thus would block any move to authorize any action. NATO should set up a no-fly zone independent of any UN decision. Frankly, the UN is a great talking shop and their specialized agencies do some good work, but in the realm of global security and peace, they are useless. Anyone relying on them for that is simply ignorant of the politics involved OR support the right of dictators to bolster and back up other dictators.
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  4. #84
    Professor

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    03-23-13 @ 02:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,265

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    justabubba;1059341838]share with us exactly what that consists of
    We are doing nothing … think that about sums it up, unless you consider talking about it as something.


    please tell us how gaddafi losing this war would cause the USA to be looked on with disdain
    and by whom
    Those fighting against Gaddafi, are looking for help from someone. This is a David vs Goliath fight. Without support, their chances are slim to none..... but should they overcome and pull this thing out.. . To say that they aren't going to be happy with the jaw flapping that they got from the country, that is suppose to be the biggest fighters of freedom in the world, in my opinion would be an understatement.


    then tell us exactly what should be done by our government concerning the libyan siituation
    At the very least we should get that no fly zone taken care of. Arms should be gotten to those fighting Gaddafi, I'm not advocating ground troops, well I am but also realize the reality that we are understaffed enough already fighting on two fronts.

    Does that mean we end up with a government that is friendly to us, no not necessarily but it does mean that we stood up for what is right, rather then what is politically correct. In my opinion, the US has to stand for something. If not supporting people fighting for their freedom from slaughter, from a ruthless dictator then what ?


    also, please do not stop posting. in fact ramp up your posts. they are so helpful
    As per ramping up my posts, I really try not to do that .. we have enough people like yourself here doing that .
    Last edited by The Barbarian; 03-12-11 at 12:42 AM.

  5. #85
    User
    Chappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    04-07-15 @ 01:50 AM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,443
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Those on the left who don't support the fight for liberty in Libya, should ask themselves what John F Kennedy would have said. …
    Personally, Jack Kennedy has always been on my “Worst Presidents Ever” list along with Ronald Reagan, but, I digress.

    More important, I believe that America shares strategic interests in Libya with other nations European and Arab and we should match our tough talk with decisive action. Time to kick some dictator-killing-his-own-people butt.

    “But let me be as clear as I can about the desired outcome from our perspective, and that is that Qaddafi step down. And we are going to continue to work with the international community to try to achieve that, and we are going to be in close consultation with these opposition groups as they get organized to see how we can bring about that outcome.” — President Barack Obama¹

    See Also: “Obama's Rwanda?
    Last edited by Chappy; 03-12-11 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Added shameless plug for my blog
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  6. #86
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,520

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Obama could eat a hamburger and conservatives would still find a way to convince themselves how its a bad idea, shows lack of leadership, is un-American, etc.


    A frightening day indeed when apdst is the voice of reason in a thread.
    Well, Duece, you can't get it wrong all the time.

    Stillballin, neither.

  7. #87
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,520

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How exactly does this support democracy? This isn't Tunisia or Egypt where there were peaceful protesters demanding democracy from a bumbling autocrat, it's an armed rebellion in a petrostate against an extremely brutal dictator. Who knows what kind of government would emerge if the rebels prevail? Granted, it almost certainly couldn't be any worse than Gaddafi's, but let's not pretend that we're "supporting democracy" if we help them. At best, we'd be supporting a government more inclined to do our bidding, which may or may not happen to become a democracy. We've been down that road before. We supported Georgia in its conflict with Russia, and we supported Kosovo in its conflict with Serbia...under the guise of supporting democracy. Today, the countries that we supported have governments every bit as bad as the ones we opposed.

    As for diplomatic recognition of the rebels at this point in time...I see a lot of downside and very little upside. Especially when they don't control the capital. If we recognize the rebels and Gadaffi crushes them tomorrow (which is hardly an unthinkable possibility) it will damage our credibility. And if the rebels prevail, what will we have gained by recognizing them a few days sooner?
    There's no way to tell what kind of governments will emerge in Tunisia and Egypt, either.

    The Islamists have already taken the lead in both countries. That's why I think it's a bad idea to jump through asses getting cosey with any of them.

    Islamist movement at forefront of Tunisia's protests - Telegraph

  8. #88
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,520

    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I'm not for military intervention, let italians fight italian wars.... But we should see leadership on the front of the POTUS.
    I think we both no better than that.

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •