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Thread: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

  1. #31
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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    We shouldn't have economic ties with that monster. We should ALL cut him off... France is making the right move on moral grounds if nothing else...
    I honestly dont know what makes Qadaffi any more of a monster than Hussein, and people were going out of their way to break the rules to be in bed with his government.

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    Sarkozy took the decision unilaterally without informing his newly appointed Foreign Affairs minister, and our European partners. I can't help but think he is pulling the "Dubya-card" ... looking forward to getting involved in a war abroad to improve his personal ratings at home. It strikes me as premature and clumsy, very Sarkozy-esque.
    I have not a clue what France is up to! I just noticed that in the case of Libya unlike the States with leaders supported by the West, from the beginning the West seemed to be trying to do a coup by stealth. It is the only place where we have seen people fighting as in battle.

    and yes, looks like Gadaffi is winning. Another intervention?

    There was a report of shooting at protests in Saudi Arabia last night - the West interfering, I don't think so. Only the other day I was listening to someone say how the Saudi's could help us with our problems with Libya. The Saudi's a people who will not even allow marches. What a confused morality or philosophy the west seems to have.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    NATO needs to make a fast decision. Does it commit as a unit or does it not? The rebels cannot hold against Khadaffi's airforce and tanks.
    Why NATO? It is not NATOs job to be a peace-keeper force, it is to protect its members. No members have been attacked.

    If anything it should be the UN that should be giving the go ahead, and then asking NATO or whoever to carry it out. We have to be very very very careful here, and I fully understand the US in this case.. we NEED the Arab nations especially Tunisia and Egypt to be on board if not asking for out-right intervention. Else it will just look like another arrogant western imperialistic for oil a la Iraq intervention. Yes it is horrible what Gadaffi is doing to his people, but to be brutally frank.. other dictators are doing the same or worse and we are not actively considering intervention there.. but Libya has .. OIL.

    On top of that, there is the problem of logistics. A lot of aircraft are needed and the closest bases are in Italy which is hours away, which makes in forcing a no fly zone quite hard.. the Libyan Air Force can be off the ground and hitting the target and back before NATO or whoever jets get even near. So the jets have to be in constant patrol far from home and that is never good. It would help if they could use Tunisia and Egypt as bases though, but..

    And even if they took out the air force, then the rebels are totally disorganised and they are facing professionally trained troops, so it is far from certain that the rebels would win.

    Personally I think the best would be to kill Gadaffi because then the house of cards would collapse.. or so I suspect.
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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I have not a clue what France is up to! I just noticed that in the case of Libya unlike the States with leaders supported by the West, from the beginning the West seemed to be trying to do a coup by stealth. It is the only place where we have seen people fighting as in battle.

    and yes, looks like Gadaffi is winning. Another intervention?

    There was a report of shooting at protests in Saudi Arabia last night - the West interfering, I don't think so. Only the other day I was listening to someone say how the Saudi's could help us with our problems with Libya. The Saudi's a people who will not even allow marches. What a confused morality or philosophy the west seems to have.
    Me neither. But I don't like how Sarko is trying to act alone on this. France should not emulate American right-wingers. Their unilateral foreign policy has proved to be damaging for their country's image abroad.

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why NATO? It is not NATOs job to be a peace-keeper force, it is to protect its members. No members have been attacked.

    If anything it should be the UN that should be giving the go ahead, and then asking NATO or whoever to carry it out. We have to be very very very careful here, and I fully understand the US in this case.. we NEED the Arab nations especially Tunisia and Egypt to be on board if not asking for out-right intervention. Else it will just look like another arrogant western imperialistic for oil a la Iraq intervention. Yes it is horrible what Gadaffi is doing to his people, but to be brutally frank.. other dictators are doing the same or worse and we are not actively considering intervention there.. but Libya has .. OIL.

    On top of that, there is the problem of logistics. A lot of aircraft are needed and the closest bases are in Italy which is hours away, which makes in forcing a no fly zone quite hard.. the Libyan Air Force can be off the ground and hitting the target and back before NATO or whoever jets get even near. So the jets have to be in constant patrol far from home and that is never good. It would help if they could use Tunisia and Egypt as bases though, but..

    And even if they took out the air force, then the rebels are totally disorganised and they are facing professionally trained troops, so it is far from certain that the rebels would win.

    Personally I think the best would be to kill Gadaffi because then the house of cards would collapse.. or so I suspect.
    Agreed, except for the last sentence. Reagan tried to kill Gadaffi in 1987. It didn't work out well.

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    Agreed, except for the last sentence. Reagan tried to kill Gadaffi in 1987. It didn't work out well.
    Well for one it was 1987, so 24 years ago. Weapons technology has advanced considerably. Also, they pretty much know where he is now as he cant move around the country safely any more. And who said it should be by air attack.... assassination would work as well.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Well for one it was 1987, so 24 years ago. Weapons technology has advanced considerably. Also, they pretty much know where he is now as he cant move around the country safely any more. And who said it should be by air attack.... assassination would work as well.
    Wasn't that what was thought about Osama bin Laden when we had post millenium cruise missiles, spy satellites and all the other technology at our aid?

    Personally I think Sarkozy is worried about his ratings at home, his Foreign Minister has embarrassed herself and Sarkozy faces losing to Marine le Pen's extremist National Front in next year's election.

    The BBC news last night was with rebel forces who were asking where the so-called "no-fly zone" was, they're losing heart and Ghaddafi's forces are taking back towns that were held. I have a horrible feeling this will last another 2 weeks without external intervention. The UN won't authorise NATO - Ghaddafi is an old friend of the USSR so Russia and China will block any resolutions.

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Well for one it was 1987, so 24 years ago. Weapons technology has advanced considerably. Also, they pretty much know where he is now as he cant move around the country safely any more. And who said it should be by air attack.... assassination would work as well.
    Our news keeps saying that there is a sizeable number of people who are genuinely supportive of Gaddafi. There is also no system for the people to move towards, no political parties though I understand that Libyans are the best educated in the middle east.

    We do not know what is going to happen in any of these countries. It must be left for the people to decide. Do you believe that leaving a power vaccum in Libya is necessarily the best thing and is that not what taking out Gaddafi, if such a thing could be done, would do?
    Last edited by alexa; 03-11-11 at 06:45 AM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Wasn't that what was thought about Osama bin Laden when we had post millenium cruise missiles, spy satellites and all the other technology at our aid?
    Well there is a huge difference here. Bin Laden was/is in hiding from the start.. Gadaffi has to show his face.

    Personally I think Sarkozy is worried about his ratings at home, his Foreign Minister has embarrassed herself and Sarkozy faces losing to Marine le Pen's extremist National Front in next year's election.
    I agree.. as for loosing to National Front.. dont agree.

    The BBC news last night was with rebel forces who were asking where the so-called "no-fly zone" was, they're losing heart and Ghaddafi's forces are taking back towns that were held. I have a horrible feeling this will last another 2 weeks without external intervention. The UN won't authorise NATO - Ghaddafi is an old friend of the USSR so Russia and China will block any resolutions.
    That is exactly the problem. We the west can bomb Gadaffi back to the stone age, but who will replace him for one, and would it even be enough for the disorganised rebel forces to win? As for Russia, they have already put in sanctions against Gadaffi and China can be convinced. The real problem is actually the US at the moment.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France formally recognises Libyan rebels' authority

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Our news keeps saying that there is a sizeable number of people who are genuinely supportive of Gaddafi.
    There is, Al Jazerra, BBC all say so .. not so much the American news of course. His whole tribe, which is a considerable number of people in the western areas, are with him and wont dump him any time soon. What we have in many ways, is a tribal war between East and West.

    There is also no system for the people to move towards, no political parties though I understand that Libyans are the best educated in the middle east.
    Yep that is a huge problem. But according to Al Jazerra the rebels are doing the paperwork so to say.. but it takes time and without a unified leadership and front figure, then it is especially hard.

    We do not know what is going to happen in any of these countries. It must be left for the people to decide. Do you believe that leaving a power vaccum in Libya is necessarily the best thing and is that not what taking out Gaddafi, if such a thing could be done, would do?
    No we dont know what will happen and that is the problem. Getting rid of Gaddafi will happen at some point.. he is an old man, but the who will replace him and with what is a big unknown. The biggest threat is a power vaccum no doubt about that, but if it stood between aiding the rebels via bombing the **** out of Gaddafi forces and him vs assassination .. then I would choose assassination any day.
    PeteEU

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