Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

Donc · Mar 14, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
No, you didn't explain mandatory unions that are in Wisconsin and unions forcing people to pay dues out of taxpayer funded wages. Why do you support someone else telling union employees how to spend their money. Forced unions is something that is indefensible.

I didn't explain mandatory anything because that wasn't the topic.Why the lame attempt at changing the topic?

Here ,maybe you lost your train of thought(such as it is) was the post i was responding to when i posted the following.

Conservative

This thread is about unions and their rights plus who is funding those unions. You seem to be misguided as usual all in an effort to claim some sort of victory. Fact unions do tell people how to spend some of their money and that money is union dues which come from the taxpayers in the form of salary, get it yet?

donc
“Give me an example of a how a Union " telling people what they have to do with some of their money? "

In your own words, tell me how a Union tells their members what to do with the money that they earn for their labors.

Conservative · Mar 14, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:
You can explain things all you want. I really don't care. Your take is the conservative take on tax breaks. Not the liberal take. Just because you believe that tax breaks don't hurt the economy, and aren't a form of corporate welfare, doesn't make it so.

And because you are wrong I will continue to educate you. Show me a line item on the Federal Budget for tax subsidy expense? How does you keeping more of your money through tax cuts hurting the economy? Like most liberals it is illogical and totally false to believe that the Govt. needs the tax dollars more than the American taxpayer. I am sure that some day you will be working and figure it out.

Conservative · Mar 14, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

donc said:
I didn't explain mandatory anything because that wasn't the topic.Why the lame attempt at changing the topic?

Here ,maybe you lost your train of thought(such as it is) was the post i was responding to when i posted the following.

In your own words, tell me how a Union tells their members what to do with the money that they earn for their labors.

It is indeed the topic, you screwed up, just admit it. This has nothing to do with the UAW or Teamsters but everything to do with unions forcing workers to join and pay union dues. Guess a liberal can never admit when wrong. Keep posting and showing your ignorance on the topic.

when a union accepts union dues they are telling the workers what to do with that part of their income. Pretty simple concept, I would expect it easier for you to understand.

Donc · Mar 14, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
It is indeed the topic, you screwed up, just admit it. This has nothing to do with the UAW or Teamsters but everything to do with unions forcing workers to join and pay union dues. Guess a liberal can never admit when wrong. Keep posting and showing your ignorance on the topic.

when a union accepts union dues they are telling the workers what to do with that part of their income. Pretty simple concept, I would expect it easier for you to understand.

Seeing as you keep attempting to divert ,dance around, my question which, is show me an example of a uniion “telling people what they have to do with some of their money? ”.Perhaps this question will be a bit easer for you. From post #893, where you say that public unions live off the taxpayers dollars? You’ll have to explain that one to this old Teamster.

Are you saying that because public employees pay their union dues, out of wages that they earn from the work they do, be it filling potholes, teach children in public schools, fight fires, or put their lives on the line to protect and serve the citizens of the city/state. You consider that public unions living off of taxpayer’s dollars?:shock:

Sgt Meowenstein · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ockham said:
Obviously you do or you wouldn't bother responding with your little insult. Let me help explain it further: A tax subsidy actually has the government relieving the normal revenue that would be collected. This has no real cost associated with it as these costs are really tax expenditures. This allows, as was previously pointed out, more money to be kept for the purposes of economic growth. Tax subsidies (of course these are not taxpayer funded) increase returns by cutting the cost of having to tax - this can be done a few different ways. Tax credits, changing the tax rate, or changing what is and is not taxed.

The end result is the person, corporation or whomever as they have higher profits, higher wages or lower prices for goods and services. As you can see, the taxpayer doesn't fund anything. Hopefully you can use this information in the future to not make the same mistake again.

Sorry you wasted all that time on a response that I won't read. I don't buy into the conservative theory of tax breaks. You can try and convince me all you want. It won't happen. Save that con BS for your naive brethren.

Sgt Meowenstein · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
And because you are wrong I will continue to educate you. Show me a line item on the Federal Budget for tax subsidy expense? How does you keeping more of your money through tax cuts hurting the economy? Like most liberals it is illogical and totally false to believe that the Govt. needs the tax dollars more than the American taxpayer. I am sure that some day you will be working and figure it out.

You are just spewing con tax cut ideology, not fact. I'm not a con. I don't buy it. Never will. Ochham seems to have fallen for it, though. Maybe the two of you can jerk off over Reagan quotes.

Gill · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
You have an exceedingly short memory, don't you?

1 in 7 poor in 2009

So do you. From your link:

One in seven Americans are living in poverty, the U.S. Census Bureau reported today -- the highest level since 1994.

Who was president in 1994 ???

Which party controlled the House for 45 years prior to 1994 ??

Looks like poverty went down under Reagan to me, after increasing dramatically under Carter.

Ockham · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:
Sorry you wasted all that time on a response that I won't read. I don't buy into the conservative theory of tax breaks. You can try and convince me all you want. It won't happen. Save that con BS for your naive brethren.

You're self imposed exile on non-conservative facts about tax breaks is part of the problem. It's not conservative theory - this is what's taught in liberal arts colleges and is called "Economics". You're free to stick your fingers in your ears and loudly scream to avoid it though. Have fun.

Ockham · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:
You are just spewing con tax cut ideology, not fact. I'm not a con. I don't buy it. Never will. Ochham seems to have fallen for it, though. Maybe the two of you can jerk off over Reagan quotes.

This isn't about "falling for it". Do you realize how hyper-partisan and ignorant your response sounds?

I assume then you only want to hear from posters who share your ideology and reject anyone who questions it as a "liar conservative". Quite amusing actually. You're view is usually what some progressives claim evangelical christian conservatives do... quite ironic actually.

Zyphlin · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Moderator's Warning:

Posters should note that this is the *Breaking News* section, not the basement. They're posts and discourse should match it as such. Cut the personal attacks and attacking vulgarity or consequences will occur

Conservative · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

donc said:
I didn't explain mandatory anything because that wasn't the topic.Why the lame attempt at changing the topic?

Here ,maybe you lost your train of thought(such as it is) was the post i was responding to when i posted the following.

In your own words, tell me how a Union tells their members what to do with the money that they earn for their labors.

What exactly is wrong with you? Forced union membership and forced dues! You don't think forcing someone to spend "their" money on union dues isn't telling someone what to do with their money? You just cannot admit you are wrong.

Erod · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Yeah its working perfectly. A 14.2 trillion dollar debt and 1 in 7 American are now poor!

Poverty Rate Climbs in Recession, One in Seven Now Poor

Which hasn't a thing to do with supply-side economics. You can thank liberal entitlement programs, unions, and stimulus packages for that. You know, the stuff the founders never wanted the government to do. You know, EXACTLY what Lenin and Trotsky wanted the government to do.

Ockham · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
What exactly is wrong with you? Forced union membership and forced dues! You don't think forcing someone to spend "their" money on union dues isn't telling someone what to do with their money? You just cannot admit you are wrong.

There's still a choice here Conservative, if the person doesn't like a closed shop, they don't have to work there.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ockham said:
There's still a choice here Conservative, if the person doesn't like a closed shop, they don't have to work there.

I agree with this, even for a heavily unionized profession like teaching, there are still plenty of schools without unions.

j-mac · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I agree with this, even for a heavily unionized profession like teaching, there are still plenty of schools without unions.

I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

j-mac

ThePlayDrive · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

j-mac

1. There are plenty of jobs that don't require unions.
2. In theory, I believe that no one should be forced to join a union. In practice, when unions negotiate pay raises, better work conditions and more benefits among other things, those who pay union dues, who went on strike, who organized and did other things with their union to get such benefits should be the only ones to benefit since those who chose to opt out of the union didn't contribute any money or do any of the work. This is a difficult thing to enforce particularly since things like better work conditions would apply to everyone.

Slartibartfast · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

j-mac

I believe the standard conservative answer to this point is that they can either start a business or find a job in another town. Nobody has an obligation to give them a job and all that stuff.

Conservative · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

j-mac

Obviously something the liberals don't want to acknowledge. Forced union dues is telling someone what to do with their money.

j-mac · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
1. There are plenty of jobs that don't require unions.

Interesting. I see how it works. When you can't stick to the scenario I laid out, and have a valid argument, you just ignore it and make up your own...Not a very honest tactic, but exposed.

Look, there may be plenty of "jobs" out there, hell if the person wanted, maybe he/she could take on three jobs at once. We all do what we must. But the union doesn't OWN that job, just as you don't OWN your job. If the unions were really into increased employment, and a fairer society, then they'd step out of the way and allow business to expand, instead of keeping their hand around the throat of business whilst they extract their ambitions of greed.

2. In theory, I believe that no one should be forced to join a union.

No you don't, or you wouldn't be arguing that one should either join or leave.

In practice, when unions negotiate pay raises, better work conditions and more benefits among other things, those who pay union dues, who went on strike, who organized and did other things with their union to get such benefits should be the only ones to benefit since those who chose to opt out of the union didn't contribute any money or do any of the work. This is a difficult thing to enforce particularly since things like better work conditions would apply to everyone.

Can you cite for us the last strike that was solely based on work conditions alone? ie; safety, hours, facilities, or cleanliness?

j-mac

j-mac · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

megaprogman said:
I believe the standard conservative answer to this point is that they can either start a business or find a job in another town. Nobody has an obligation to give them a job and all that stuff.

That is exactly right, hell I did it myself. Grew up in Michigan, Lived in Maryland, and now South Carolina. However, on the other hand, who is the union to say I can't have that job if I am qualified? It's like the Mob, having to pay protection money to.

j-mac

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Unless someone's birthdate is before 1939, Union membership is at its lowest point in your lifetime. To blame unions for todays economic meltdown is ludicrous.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
Interesting. I see how it works. When you can't stick to the scenario I laid out, and have a valid argument, you just ignore it and make up your own...Not a very honest tactic, but exposed.

Look, there may be plenty of "jobs" out there, hell if the person wanted, maybe he/she could take on three jobs at once. We all do what we must. But the union doesn't OWN that job, just as you don't OWN your job. If the unions were really into increased employment, and a fairer society, then they'd step out of the way and allow business to expand, instead of keeping their hand around the throat of business whilst they extract their ambitions of greed.

No you don't, or you wouldn't be arguing that one should either join or leave.

Can you cite for us the last strike that was solely based on work conditions alone? ie; safety, hours, facilities, or cleanliness?

j-mac

1. I didn't ignore anything.
2. I'm not going look for something that doesn't disprove my argument.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
That is exactly right, hell I did it myself. Grew up in Michigan, Lived in Maryland, and now South Carolina. However, on the other hand, who is the union to say I can't have that job if I am qualified? It's like the Mob, having to pay protection money to.

j-mac

Unions don't just come in and take over. People have to want them first.

MaggieD · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Unless someone's birthdate is before 1939, Union membership is at its lowest point in your lifetime. To blame unions for todays economic meltdown is ludicrous.

I agree we have to be careful about villifying unions and blaming them for our economic meltdown. We can rightfully expect, though, that public sector union members share in some of our pain...thereby helping to ease the burden on taxpayers. Defined benefit pension plans are Rolls Royce's we just can't afford.

haymarket · Mar 15, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

from Erod

Boy, this story went quiet, didn't it? And not just because of an earthquake either.

Americans don't have the time or patience for unions.

Actually almost all the polls tell us that Ameicans have no patience for the rash of union bashing that we see here.

Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

Donc

Conservative

Conservative

Donc

Sgt Meowenstein

Sgt Meowenstein

Gill

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

Zyphlin

Conservative

Erod

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

ThePlayDrive

j-mac

ThePlayDrive

Slartibartfast

Jesus loves you.

Conservative

j-mac

j-mac

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

ThePlayDrive

ThePlayDrive

MaggieD

haymarket