Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:

I'm not going to play silly games here with you. What I said still stands - if you want to discuss this in detail, make a new thread.

Your question is answered in parts.
Revenue directly decreased after the tax cuts, not increased.
It increased later, as it always does in time because of two reasons:
A) an inflating dollar
B) an expanding workforce

I know you won't accept these because you do everything in nominal rather than real dollars, or my favorite "80's dollars", so I'm not expecting anything.

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I'm going to wade in on this.... tax cuts are not an expense to the government, however, they immediately do reduce tax receipts

I think the argument should be do tax cuts tend to help growth, which in turn generates more tax receipts From what I have seen, they seem to, but I think that more depends on your political views more then anything else. It seems in the past that more often then not, we have had good growth after tax cuts. But that is difficult, if not impossible to prove, because you can't compare it to something that didn't happen ( the tax cuts not happening)

My personal opinion on this, is that our taxation system, is really a delicate thing. When tax rates are too high, people tend to hide money, (people in the upper incomes) and it restricts spending. Taxes that are too low, will force the government to have to cut programs that are no longer affordable (if there is to be a balanced budget) or operate at a deficit.

What has happened, is that since 1982 or 83, we basically have had a good time of things, I remember seeing a chart where tax revenue has risen nearly every single year since then, and our government has done nothing but overspend what they have taken in in every one of them years (maybe one when they hadn't) That's why I have said over and over, we don't have a taxation problem in this country we have a spending problem.

This would be akin to anyone here, working for 35 years, getting a raise every year, never saving a penny, and going further in debt every year, then losing your job, and blaming your boss because you are deep in debt, and have no savings.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I realize this is an incredibly cynical comment I'm about to make, but it's true, so here goes.

Today's earthquake/tsunami in Japan is especially bad news for the Wisconsin union protesters. They'll be second bill for a while now on the nightly news.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

^ As sick as I know that is, I thought the same thing.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Erod said:

I realize this is an incredibly cynical comment I'm about to make, but it's true, so here goes.

Today's earthquake/tsunami in Japan is especially bad news for the Wisconsin union protesters. They'll be second bill for a while now on the nightly news.

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May be cynical, but it's a good call. Seems the news organizations can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Amazed said:

Done

Now sarge....it's your turn..you sound awfully sure of yourself.

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I'm not playing your game. I don't need to wager anything. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But so far, thousands have signed recall petitions against Repub state Senators. Polls show a majority are unhappy with Walker and Repub legislators. In fact, a new poll conducted in two WI Repub Senator's districts, a majority of their own constituents said if a recall election were held right now, they'd vote for someone other than their Repub Senators. Things aren't looking good for Walker. It's just a matter of time.

The Plum Line - Poll: Majorities support recall of two Wisconsin GOP senators

I've got an advance look at some new polling by Survey USA that finds solid majorities in two GOP senate districts support the recall of their senators. The poll was paid for by MoveOn, which obviously has an ax to grind in this fight, but Survey USA is a respected non-partisan pollster that's routinely cited by major news organizations.

Here are the numbers, sent over by a MoveOn official, in the districts of GOP senators Dan Kapanke and Randy Hopper.

When asked if they would vote for Hopper or someone else if a recall election were held right now, 54 percent said they'd vote for someone else, versus only 43 percent they'd vote for Hopper.

In Kapanke's district, the numbers were even worse: 57 percent said they'd vote for someone else, versus only 41 percent who said they'd vote for Kapanke.

It gets even more interesting. The poll was taken yesterday, before last night's events, and fifty-six percent of voters in Kapanke's district, and 54% of voters in Hopper's district, said if their Senator voted for Walker's plan, it would make them more likely to vote for someone else. Last night, both Senators did vote for Walker's rollback of bargaining rights.

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

I'm not playing your game. I don't need to wager anything. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But so far, thousands have signed recall petitions against Repub state Senators. Polls show a majority are unhappy with Walker and Repub legislators. In fact, a new poll conducted in two WI Repub Senator's districts, a majority of their own constituents said if a recall election were held right now, they'd vote for someone other than their Repub Senators. Things aren't looking good for Walker. It's just a matter of time.

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the unions are throwing a lot of muscle behind this issue trying to drive public relations toward their cause.

but the problem for them is these changes are going to be an improvement on the economy, and no amount of propaganda will change that.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The Barbarian said:

I'm going to wade in on this.... tax cuts are not an expense to the government, however, they immediately do reduce tax receipts

I think the argument should be do tax cuts tend to help growth, which in turn generates more tax receipts From what I have seen, they seem to, but I think that more depends on your political views more then anything else. It seems in the past that more often then not, we have had good growth after tax cuts. But that is difficult, if not impossible to prove, because you can't compare it to something that didn't happen ( the tax cuts not happening)

My personal opinion on this, is that our taxation system, is really a delicate thing. When tax rates are too high, people tend to hide money, (people in the upper incomes) and it restricts spending. Taxes that are too low, will force the government to have to cut programs that are no longer affordable (if there is to be a balanced budget) or operate at a deficit.

What has happened, is that since 1982 or 83, we basically have had a good time of things, I remember seeing a chart where tax revenue has risen nearly every single year since then, and our government has done nothing but overspend what they have taken in in every one of them years (maybe one when they hadn't) That's why I have said over and over, we don't have a taxation problem in this country we have a spending problem.

This would be akin to anyone here, working for 35 years, getting a raise every year, never saving a penny, and going further in debt every year, then losing your job, and blaming your boss because you are deep in debt, and have no savings.

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You make some valid points here and I agree with many of them. Tax cuts will indeed lower revenue initially due to the fact that it takes time for those cuts to appear in people's paychecks or in the case of rebates to get to the public and thus into the economy. What far too many ignore is that we have a consumer based economy where almost 2/3 of GDP is consumption or consumer spending. It is that spending that drives demand and demand is what creates jobs. Too many ignore that and focus purely on simple math which is that if you cut tax rates and get nothing out of it you are going to lose revenue. Makes sense, however that ignores human behavior and what actual people do with the extra money in their paychecks.

I never did better than during the Reagan years with his 10-10-5% tax cuts. I paid down debt making me less dependent and more self sufficient which helped me and gave the creditors money to help others. Whether someone spends, saves, invests, or pays down debt that helps grow the economy by creating investment capital. Tax revenue as a result grows when there are more people paying taxes and that comes from Jobs.

Right now we have 15 million unemployed Americans and the only way to put them back to work is to create more demand for jobs and that comes from tax cuts.

Now how does that relate to the thread topic? Walker has put his reputation on the line and claimed that he will create over 200000 jobs by reducing collective bargaining rights which formerly were a tax on business. By eliminating some of their rights the business environment improves attracting more to the state. If that works Walker will be re-elected, if not, he will lose. I favor him being re-elected. We shall see.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:

the unions are throwing a lot of muscle behind this issue trying to drive public relations toward their cause.

but the problem for them is these changes are going to be an improvement on the economy, and no amount of propaganda will change that.

Click to expand...

And when the state legislature is controlled by Dems and Walker is recalled and replaced by a Dem (look at the polls in WI. Look at the recall efforts. The numbers speak for themselves. It will happen), bargaining rights will be reinstated. The people of WI are angry. You can't change that. No amount of fake boogieman arguments from the right is going to change that.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:

the unions are throwing a lot of muscle behind this issue trying to drive public relations toward their cause.

but the problem for them is these changes are going to be an improvement on the economy, and no amount of propaganda will change that.

Click to expand...

Hard to believe that's not the case considering all the muscle the Dems are throwing at this thing. It's a life or death issue for the Democrat party. Such a wonderful thing that the evil partnership that's threatening the survival of the entire nation is finally seeing the light of day.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

And when the state legislature is controlled by Dems and Walker is recalled and replaced by a Dem (look at the polls in WI. Look at the recall efforts. The numbers speak for themselves. It will happen), bargaining rights will be reinstated. The people of WI are angry. You can't change that. No amount of fake boogieman arguments from the right is going to change that.

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Yes but consider the cost of those bargaining "rights." You're not supposed to bleed the milk herd. Businesses are leaving. Money is leaving. Taxpayers don't like being eaten alive to pay off Democrat Party supporters.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

And when the state legislature is controlled by Dems and Walker is recalled and replaced by a Dem (look at the polls in WI. Look at the recall efforts. The numbers speak for themselves. It will happen), bargaining rights will be reinstated. The people of WI are angry. You can't change that. No amount of fake boogieman arguments from the right is going to change that.

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where do you live? I don't beleive the polls, I believe my neighbors.

the political climate has not changed in your favor.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

And when the state legislature is controlled by Dems and Walker is recalled and replaced by a Dem (look at the polls in WI. Look at the recall efforts. The numbers speak for themselves. It will happen), bargaining rights will be reinstated. The people of WI are angry. You can't change that. No amount of fake boogieman arguments from the right is going to change that.

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Sgt, do you live in Wisconsin? There are 2.5 million people in the labor force and 400,000 belong to unions with not all of them public sector union employees. A very small percentage of the people so the majority IMO aren't going to support any recall election as the Governor did what he was elected to do. You and all other liberals would bankrupt the state and the nation just so that you get your benefits, the hell with the taxpayers. My bet is 2.1 million employees in Wisconsin disagree with you.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:

where do you live? I don't beleive the polls, I believe my neighbors.

the political climate has not changed in your favor.

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Believe your neighbors in Repub state senator's districts who said they support a recall of their Senators. Believe the polls conducted of WI voters that show a majority oppose Walker and his bill. Believe the thousands who continue to march on your capital. You may have won this battle, but you have lost the message. WI voters and the American public are on the side of the unions. Walker is done. The Dems will soon control your legislature and the governorship. You awakened a sleeping giant. Now you have to deal with it.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

Believe your neighbors in Repub state senator's districts who said they support a recall of their Senators. Believe the polls conducted of WI voters that show a majority oppose Walker and his bill. Believe the thousands who continue to march on your capital. You may have won this battle, but you have lost the message. WI voters and the American public are on the side of the unions. Walker is done. The Dems will soon control your legislature and the governorship. You awakened a sleeping giant. Now you have to deal with it.

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how much time have you spent in Wisconsin these last two weeks (you clearly don't live anywhere near Wisconsin to be so brash in your claims)

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

And when the state legislature is controlled by Dems and Walker is recalled and replaced by a Dem (look at the polls in WI. Look at the recall efforts. The numbers speak for themselves. It will happen), bargaining rights will be reinstated. The people of WI are angry. You can't change that. No amount of fake boogieman arguments from the right is going to change that.

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You keep on believing that, and good gawd, the msm is trying like hell to say this, but it's not true. Sorry.

People largely support Walker, in Wisconsin and elsewhere. The "pollsters" conveniently don't ask them. They're trying to create a wave of anger toward Walker, but all I see is a bunch of 60s rejects and wannabes on the tube, which disgusts most American voters.

And if this improves Wisconsin's economy, which it will, the template will be in place. Many other states will follow Wisconsin's lead once they elect the right folks. Some, like Ohio, already have the right folks in place.

Unions know this and are freaking out. This is their Waterloo, and they know it.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Sgt, do you live in Wisconsin? There are 2.5 million people in the labor force and 400,000 belong to unions with not all of them public sector union employees. A very small percentage of the people so the majority IMO aren't going to support any recall election as the Governor did what he was elected to do. You and all other liberals would bankrupt the state and the nation just so that you get your benefits, the hell with the taxpayers. My bet is 2.1 million employees in Wisconsin disagree with you.

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It will be interesting to see what happens to union membership in Wisconsin's public sector now that people have a choice.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Erod said:

Unions know this and are freaking out. This is their Waterloo, and they know it.

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of course they are. private union membership is waning because the huge anchor it puts on business owners has forced them out of business.

the unions only hope for existance is to latch on entities that don't exist to make profit. that way they don't have to worry about drowning profits as profits aren't the motivation.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

MaggieD said:

It will be interesting to see what happens to union membership in Wisconsin's public sector now that people have a choice.

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Exactly, no wonder the unions are fighting so hard and spending so much money on this issue, they know the outcome.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Sgt, do you live in Wisconsin? There are 2.5 million people in the labor force and 400,000 belong to unions with not all of them public sector union employees. A very small percentage of the people so the majority IMO aren't going to support any recall election as the Governor did what he was elected to do. You and all other liberals would bankrupt the state and the nation just so that you get your benefits, the hell with the taxpayers. My bet is 2.1 million employees in Wisconsin disagree with you.

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Since when does one need to belong to a union in order to support collective bargaining. Read a poll. There are quite a few of them on this subject, conducted on residents of your own state. All of the polls show a clear majority of WI citizens support the unions. The numbers aren't even close. That is a fact. You can say this or that, but you can't change that fact.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:

how much time have you spent in Wisconsin these last two weeks (you clearly don't live anywhere near Wisconsin to be so brash in your claims)

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The majority of Americans are against it:

Scaling Back State Programs Is Least of Three Fiscal Evils

As Wisconsin and numerous other states struggle to reduce untenable budget deficits, a new USA Today/Gallup poll finds that not one of three major fiscal strategies available to state lawmakers is very popular. The least objectionable to Americans is "reducing or eliminating certain state programs," with about equal numbers in favor as opposed. A slight majority, 53%, opposes reducing pay and benefits for state workers, and a larger majority, 71%, opposes raising state taxes.

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Additionally, the new poll finds Americans opposed to their own state adopting a deficit-reduction proposal, like the one that has triggered a legislative standoff in Wisconsin, that eliminates some of the collective bargaining rights of most public unions, including the teachers' union. One-third of Americans say they would favor such a bill in their own state, while 61% would oppose it.

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The majority of Wisconsinites are against it:

The Plum Line - The Morning Plum

hen read a very detailed explanation of Walker's proposal, 52 percent of Wisconsin voters oppose it, 42 percent strongly so. Meanwhile, 42 percent support it, only 24 percent strongly.

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Somebody show me some facts that suggest that the majority of Americans and Wisconsinites, in particular, support this bill.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:

The majority of Americans are against it:

Scaling Back State Programs Is Least of Three Fiscal Evils





The majority of Wisconsinites are against it:

The Plum Line - The Morning Plum



Somebody show me some facts that suggest that the majority of Americans and Wisconsinites, in particular, support this bill.

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don't care about biased polls one bit. save 'em for dailykos, or whereever you frequent.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Exactly, no wonder the unions are fighting so hard and spending so much money on this issue, they know the outcome.

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This has more to do with the parasitic relationship with the Democratic WI base than is being led on. Walkers success and win on this issue has put the unions on their heels and he played the fiddle just right. He offered a compromise in the 11th hour, the fleebaggers scoffed and Walker split it out and got the job done. The timing was just right and he out played them at their own game. Kudo's to a very well done political victory.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Exactly, no wonder the unions are fighting so hard and spending so much money on this issue, they know the outcome.

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Which is why WI voters know it was never about the budget. Republicans once again overplayed their hand. Your Repub Senate Majority Leader came out and admitted the other day on Faux Ooze that their gaol is to weaken Democratic support. He ****ing admitted it on national tv. If anybody in WI had any doubts, Fitzgerald's comments confirmed the obvious. It was never about the budget.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

Since when does one need to belong to a union in order to support collective bargaining. Read a poll. There are quite a few of them on this subject, conducted on residents of your own state. All of the polls show a clear majority of WI citizens support the unions. The numbers aren't even close. That is a fact. You can say this or that, but you can't change that fact.

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Read the bill, it doesn't remove salary from the collective bargaining rights which still is more than Federal Employee Unions have. All the polls? Depends on how the question is asked but you want so badly to believe what some tell you that you continue to buy the rhetoric. Fiscal responsibility doesn't seem to be an issue with either unions or liberals. You are sorely going to be disappointed.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Sgt Meowenstein said:

Which is why WI voters know it was never about the budget. Republicans once again overplayed their hand. Your Repub Senate Majority Leader came out and admitted the other day on Faux Ooze that their gaol is to weaken Democratic support. He ****ing admitted it on national tv. If anybody in WI had any doubts, Fitzgerald's comments confirmed the obvious. It was never about the budget.

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We shall see, right? you are going to be disappointed in the outcome. What will your next move be?