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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and republicans felt they could simply up and leave a democratic vote whenever they wished?

What a joke this has become. Now the union protestors have stormed the capitol; all because those same democrats wouldn't partake in a legit democratic process.

Fine, screw it. Whenever republicans disagree with a proposed vote let them flee for 3 weeks and then complain about their manuever being outmanueverd.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I'm really over the whole condescending question thing. You can no longer claim that ignorance is responsible for my point of view. It's funny how difficult it is for you to grasp that people can have two different ideas on the same reality.
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Democrats leaving the state and protesters doing millions of dollars in damage to the state capitol says it all about how childish liberals are. The reality is, elections have consequences according to "your" President and one of those consequences in Wisconsin is the Republicans gaining control. Instead of accepting that and participating in the debate politicans ran and protesters from all over the country decended on the Capitol inflicting damage and acting like the spoiled children they are.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Zyphlin said:
54% in favor of repeal - March 7th . . . This one seems to be the most current. Gallup's most recent is from January...and it also has more people favoring repeal than keeping it.

As the topic has been less of a focus the number has been dropping, but my comment still applies to October through December of last year when it was at its peak. I saw many of the left leaning people in this thread posting then, I don't remember then proclaiming then that we must follow what the polls say.

Its one thing ot suggest that the public doesn't want him doing this. If you don't argue that "polls can be skewed" when a poll you dislike is put forward, then you could definitely make that claim. However, to suggest he should not be doing this based almost singularly because the "people" IE the polls are against it is a rather single minded view, and one that is strangely seemingly only used when people have polls in their favor.
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Poll: Most Oppose Cutting Funding for Health Care Reforms

I am not suggesting Walker shouldn't be doing this based solely on the polls. I am pointing out that he does not have voter support for this action. It is my guess that the vote in the illegal open meeting will be thrown out by the courts. And then there is the recall efforts underway by the Wisconsin voters.

I wouldn't say this is over yet.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Basically, rage against the machine if things go against your socialistic-democratic view.

Unions stripped 130 million dollars from taxpayers to fund Obama's campaign. No more. Not with taxpayer money. Same with NPR.

Oh how the mask is lifted.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Wake said:
Basically, rage against the machine if things go against your socialistic-democratic view.

Unions stripped 130 million dollars from taxpayers to fund Obama's campaign. No more. Not with taxpayer money. Same with NPR.

Oh how the mask is lifted.
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Another who feels our parents were socialists huh? Basically it is workers uniting against the onset of fascism. Although it is noted that many would willingly go along corporate rule.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Zyphlin said:
The goal posts, you are moving them.

You asked me to find A poll that was current and about repeal. Your counter to me doing just that is finding a different poll, from last month, that's about funding.

Wow, that one deserves a slow clap.
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Defunding is is the only means left to get rid of health care reform, as repeal has been defeated.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Defunding is is the only means left to get rid of health care reform, as repeal has been defeated.
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You asked for a poll showing that Americans were for repeal and got that poll. Now you want to change the debate. Typical of you.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Defunding is is the only means left to get rid of health care reform, as repeal has been defeated.
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This is simply rationalizing your point by finding something different and making it fit. Which is kind of my point. For example, collective bargaining is what brought about the unfundable deals in the first place that is part of the financial crisis. Polls and election results before and after Walker being voted in showed WI voters were in favor of actions to fix the financial situation in their state. Fixing it in the short term is irrelevant if a problem will come back shortly thereafter. Thus, Walker is attempting to fight the cause not the symptom. As such, while voters dislike how he's doing it he's also doing what they asked based on polls and election results. Thus I could rationalize he IS doing the will of the people.

That's the issue with polls as your main method of coming to a conclussion on this kind of stuff, there's always a different poll and a different way to view it.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Poll: Most Oppose Cutting Funding for Health Care Reforms

I am not suggesting Walker shouldn't be doing this based solely on the polls. I am pointing out that he does not have voter support for this action. It is my guess that the vote in the illegal open meeting will be thrown out by the courts. And then there is the recall efforts underway by the Wisconsin voters.

I wouldn't say this is over yet.
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It wasn't illegal, that's just talking points.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Zyphlin said:
This is simply rationalizing your point by finding something different and making it fit. Which is kind of my point. For example, collective bargaining is what brought about the unfundable deals in the first place that is part of the financial crisis. Polls and election results before and after Walker being voted in showed WI voters were in favor of actions to fix the financial situation in their state. Fixing it in the short term is irrelevant if a problem will come back shortly thereafter. Thus, Walker is attempting to fight the cause not the symptom. As such, while voters dislike how he's doing it he's also doing what they asked based on polls and election results. Thus I could rationalize he IS doing the will of the people.

That's the issue with polls as your main method of coming to a conclussion on this kind of stuff, there's always a different poll and a different way to view it.
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Collective bargaining was the process where public servants negotiated with taxpayers as to how much of their salary was to be put in benefits. There is nothing unfundable about them. A decision was made that tax cuts to business was more important than honoring the contracts made with the workers. As Wisconsin voters have pointed out, Walker did not mention ending collective bargaining during his campaign and they are feeling buyer's remorse. Polls are only an indication of that dissatisfaction.

I support workers rights over corporate interest myself.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Democrats leaving the state and protesters doing millions of dollars in damage to the state capitol says it all about how childish liberals are. The reality is, elections have consequences according to "your" President and one of those consequences in Wisconsin is the Republicans gaining control. Instead of accepting that and participating in the debate politicans ran and protesters from all over the country decended on the Capitol inflicting damage and acting like the spoiled children they are.
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There wasn't a debate. Republicans were going to pass the bill regardless of what Democrats said. The only way to stall the process and try to negotiate or find a way to prevent the bill from passing and leave to it a later date when more DEBATE could be had was to leave. Republicans were not interested in debate and as many conservatives in this thread have said or implied, they shouldn't have been, because compromise is weak and 'this is what the voters wanted'.

This is where you reveal how illusion forms the foundation of your arguments.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Wake said:
What if the shoe was on the other foot, and republicans felt they could simply up and leave a democratic vote whenever they wished?

What a joke this has become. Now the union protestors have stormed the capitol; all because those same democrats wouldn't partake in a legit democratic process.

Fine, screw it. Whenever republicans disagree with a proposed vote let them flee for 3 weeks and then complain about their manuever being outmanueverd.
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I don't know what other said, but I've already said that both Republicans and Democrats were doing what they were supposed to do in this situation: working in the interest of their constituents. If the Republicans left - I would feel the same way. Politicians are supposed to work for their voters.

And Democrats do not 'simply up and leave a democratic vote whenever they wish'. They left because Walker forced this without sufficient discussion or debate and it was a bill that severely hurt their voters' interests. If Dems left whenever they want, then nothing would ever be voted on. Cool off the hyperbole.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
There wasn't a debate. Republicans were going to pass the bill regardless of what Democrats said. The only way to stall the process and try to negotiate or find a way to prevent the bill from passing and leave to it a later date when more DEBATE could be had was to leave. Republicans were not interested in debate and as many conservatives in this thread have said or implied, they shouldn't have been, because compromise is weak and 'this is what the voters wanted'.

This is where you reveal how illusion forms the foundation of your arguments.
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Justifying what the Democrat Legislators did because they lost the election? Elections have consequences according to Obama but apparently that is only when Democrats win elections. Didn't the voters make a choice in November?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I don't know what other said, but I've already said that both Republicans and Democrats were doing what they were supposed to do in this situation: working in the interest of their constituents.
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Good, then you agree that Republicans were acting in their constituent's best interest by passing the law as they did.

tit for tat
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
You must be joking. It's not a subversion of the democratic process. When you feel that your voters are under attack, you stand up for them. The Democrats left to stall the vote in order to protect their constituents' interests - this is why we vote for who we vote for. They left in hopes of stalling the process, finding laws that prevented Walker's actions and perhaps reaching negotiations that kept collective bargaining in tact. These types of actions are an expression of democratic ideals - voting is NOT the only way.
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Okay, lets take your thought process one step further … many of the new representatives elected in 2010 ran on a platform of repealing the health care bill.
So by your same standard, they were elected to do just that, by any and all means possible. If they can't repeal it … then they should de-fund it.... do anything and everything, to stop Obama care. That is their duty to the people that put them in office.
So I presume that you will be on the side of republicans to do just that ??
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

death threats...

surprised?

where's krugman, where's the nyt ed staff?

The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights. Among the threats the Justice Department is investigationg is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night. Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email. The following is the unedited email:

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't
tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you.
Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
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Capitol Chaos: Lawmakers Get Death Threats | Newsradio 620 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Talk, Sports, Weather | Local Headlines

a nutball or two sending an email is one thing

but how long do you think the thousands of seiu's will be able to maintain decorum

ie, restrain themselves

good luck with em

stay up, or we'll getcha on civility too
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Justifying what the Democrat Legislators did because they lost the election? Elections have consequences according to Obama but apparently that is only when Democrats win elections. Didn't the voters make a choice in November?
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Oh, now I see you're problem. You think that when some people vote for one party, citizens who either didn't vote for them or disagree with their actions should just lay down a take it. No. Also, I'm not justifying. There is a difference between explaining and justifying. Why can't you just take an argument for what it is without attaching some subjective, partisan meaning to it?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The Prof said:
death threats...

surprised?

where's krugman, where's the nyt ed staff?



Capitol Chaos: Lawmakers Get Death Threats | Newsradio 620 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Talk, Sports, Weather | Local Headlines

a nutball or two sending an email is one thing

but how long do you think the thousands of seiu's will be able to maintain decorum

ie, restrain themselves

good luck with em

stay up, or we'll getcha on civility too
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please stop this nonsense. we've been over this type of thing in other threads. fringe members of both parties do crazy things. i mean, even lady gaga gets death threats. it's embarrassing when someone from either side tries to frame members of the other party as savages. please.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Oh, now I see you're problem. You think that when some people vote for one party, citizens who either didn't vote for them or disagree with their actions should just lay down a take it. No. Also, I'm not justifying. There is a difference between explaining and justifying. Why can't you just take an argument for what it is without attaching some subjective, partisan meaning to it?
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I think that Legislators who lose shouldn't run away from the debate nor do I think that people protesting should do millions of dollars worth of damage to the Capitol that the taxpayers are going to have to pay for. You have a different opinion?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
That rule in Wisconsin is for anything to do with appropriations and since appropriations were taken out of the bill it doesn't apply. Do you live in Wisconsin? If not why is this an issue for you? Trying to tie leaving the state with a filibuster is quite a stretch.
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fillibuster: obstruct deliberately by delaying

By definition, what they did was a filibuster.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I'll say again this had to be done. It's like tough love. It hurts initially but it is better in the long run. Just like the healthcare bill had to be passed despite what current polls said. It is for the greater good. The Democrats are just angry because it intrudes on "their" turf and will probably cause them to lose a hefty portion of campaign financing. The unions will either have to be dismantled completely or seriously restructured. I'm in favor of throwing it out and starting over entirely.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

CriticalThought said:
fillibuster: obstruct deliberately by delaying

By definition, what they did was a filibuster.
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No, what they did was run out on their obligations, a lot of bills were voted on while they were running. That just shows how childish liberals can be
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

hazlnut said:
Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights without Dems



I don't know if they're cowards, they just risked a massive recall to carry out the agenda of a few billionaire GOP supporters...

I'd say they're just dumb cheeseheads.
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so what does that make the Dems for failing to show up for work? I know that if I told my boss to get stuffed and left town, I'd last about 5 minutes before I was fired.
 
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