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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    I'm not going to play silly games here with you. What I said still stands - if you want to discuss this in detail, make a new thread.

    Your question is answered in parts.
    Revenue directly decreased after the tax cuts, not increased.
    It increased later, as it always does in time because of two reasons:
    A) an inflating dollar
    B) an expanding workforce

    I know you won't accept these because you do everything in nominal rather than real dollars, or my favorite "80's dollars", so I'm not expecting anything.
    Expanding work force? Hmmm, wonder what caused that? Couldn't have anything at all to do with people having and spending more of their own money? Guess the Treasury Dept got it all wrong.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    What really bothers me is how this whole argument stemmed from people shouting back and forth about whether or not the unions had a damaging effect on the state economy. I never saw the numbers made available anywhere. I never heard impartial experts give their opinion. All I heard was political wrangling, and no actual facts.

    What I do know is that workers now have less ability to check their employers. That was the point of unions, to be a check on the power that employers already possess. The playing field is no longer level. And now we can expect to see the newly strengthened party using that power. And abusing it. Because that's what people do with power. They abuse it. Every single time. That's what checks and balances are for. And that's what we have just lost.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What really bothers me is how this whole argument stemmed from people shouting back and forth about whether or not the unions had a damaging effect on the state economy. I never saw the numbers made available anywhere. I never heard impartial experts give their opinion. All I heard was political wrangling, and no actual facts.

    What I do know is that workers now have less ability to check their employers. That was the point of unions, to be a check on the power that employers already possess. The playing field is no longer level. And now we can expect to see the newly strengthened party using that power. And abusing it. Because that's what people do with power. They abuse it. Every single time. That's what checks and balances are for. And that's what we have just lost.
    You are missing the point entirely and confusing private sector unions with public sector unions. Public sector unions work for the taxpayers and are taxpayers as well. The checks and balances are the elections with public sector employees. Notice what collective bargaining rights Federal Union Employees have and why aren't those good enough for the states?

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yeah right, it those rich teachers, firefighters and cops that are bringing the country down, its not the millionaires, who since 2003 have been getting more in annual tax breaks ($91,000 on average) than a teacher makes in a year, but sure, for sure go after the teachers and give up and see how much better your life gets.
    Yes, right. The partnership of Democrat and unions has brought down many cities and states and now it is threatening the nation itself. What kind of "fundamental change" do you think Obama is talking about? Who are the most frequent visitors to the Obama White House?

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Yes, right. The partnership of Democrat and unions has brought down many cities and states and now it is threatening the nation itself. What kind of "fundamental change" do you think Obama is talking about? Who are the most frequent visitors to the Obama White House?

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Is it too early to for a Governor Walker monument to be erected in Washington, D.C.?

    What a great event this is, soon to be followed elsewhere across the country. Unions are a tremendous drag to federal, state, and local budgets both in capital and in lack of productivity.

    I heard yesterday there are 4,000 teachers in New York that are so bad, they are kept out of the classroom; yet, they still receive full salary because their union membership makes them virtually unfireable. That is why this is so important.

    And if this allows Wisconsin to balance its budget and create more jobs, Walker might end up being Governor for life.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Public sector unions do not share the same history with private sector unions.

    Public-sector workers were already earning good salaries in 1962 when President Kennedy issued an executive order lifting the federal ban on government unions. Thanks to civil service regulations and similar laws, government workers had enjoyed good working conditions for generations.


    The earliest unions in both the U.S. and Great Britain consisted of skilled workers, as it was widely believed that unskilled laborers were not suited for union organization.

    But over time, in Britain and elsewhere in Europe, unions for unskilled or semi-skilled workers grew into viable entities. This trend eventually came to America as well, when, in 1935, the AFL expelled a small group of member unions that were attempting to organize unskilled laborers. The expelled unions joined forces to form the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO), which successfully organized the steel and automobile industries.


    During the latter years of the Depression, the U.S. labor movement was infiltrated by members of the Communist Party. Soon after World War II, however, unions generally began a process of purging their ranks of Communist influences. That process was given particular urgency in 1947 when Congress passed the Taft-Hartley Labor Act, which stipulated that unions would be required to file financial reports and affidavits affirming that none of their officers were Communists.


    From the 1950s through the mid-1990s, union leadership tended generally to be politically centrist. This trend was personified by such figures as Albert Shanker, who served as president of the American Federation of Teachers (AFT) from 1974 to 1997; George Meany, who led the AFL-CIO from 1955 to 1979; and Lane Kirkland, who succeeded Meany as AFL-CIO president from 1979 to 1995.

    When Shanker and Kirkland's respective tenures ended in the 1990s, however, they were replaced by leftists like Sandra Feldman (AFT), and John Sweeney (AFL-CIO). These individuals, along with other leftist ideologues at the helm of powerful unions, quickly transformed the labor movement into a “progressive” crusade.


    Another major figure in the labor movement was Andrew Stern, the former New Leftist who served as president of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) from 1996 to 2010. As Ryan Lizza, associate editor of The New Republic, notes, today’s SEIU leaders "tend to be radical, even socialist."


    The leftward ideological shift of the unions brought with it a dramatic increase in political activism by union leaders and foot soldiers alike.

    In 1996, for instance, Andrew Stern told SEIU officials that he expected “every leader at every level of this union, from the international president to the rank-and-file member, to devote five working days this year to political action” in support of the Democratic Party and its candidates.

    Meanwhile, another major union, the National Education Association (NEA), has assembled a permanent, paid, full-time staff of at least 1,800 United Service (UniServ) employees who function as political operatives -- more than the Republican and Democratic Parties combined.

    Beyond this, leftwing unions like the SEIU and NEA contribute huge sums of money to Democratic candidates during every election season.

    Government (public-sector) unions have become major players in the American political process, providing a strong base of support for the left.

    As of 2010, fully 36.2 percent of government employees were unionized.

    This is virtually the only sector of American society where unions have been growing.


    In the mid-20th century, nearly half of private-sector workers were union members.

    By 2010, that proportion had plummeted to a mere 6.9 percent of private-sector workers.





    One reason for this decline is that unionized private-sector companies, forced to pay wages higher than the law of supply-and-demand warranted, became uncompetitive in the global marketplace and went out of business.





    Public-sector unions, by contrast, have suffered no such consequences because their success depends upon their ability to siphon up taxpayer dollars, rather than upon their fiscal responsibility and the realities of the market. Public employees earn approximately 45 percent more, on average, in wages and benefits than comparable private-sector workers. In addition, public employees, as compared to their private-sector counterparts, pay less for their health care and receive pensions that are far more generous -- often without contributing any of their own money to those benefits. Rather, American taxpayers foot the bill.

    Because government workers get their money not from a free marketplace but from taxes, their unions have a large incentive to advocate on behalf of political leaders who support higher taxes and bigger government, which can, in turn, produce an ever-greater number of public-sector union jobs.

    Indeed, when California voters approved Proposition 13 in 1978, cutting the state's astronomical property taxes by 57 percent, the public-sector unions were enraged. Union leader Ron Coleman said, "We're not going to just lie back and take it."

    As pollster Scott Rasmussen explained in the Wall Street Journal, “Public-sector workers want government to grow first, and the overall health of the economy isn’t as relevant to them.” This mindset translates into overwhelming public-sector union support for Democratic politicians who will block efforts to reduce government and to lower taxes. Indeed, public-sector union money constitutes the lifeblood of the Democratic Party.

    Union political support for Democrats is a trend that has been in place for decades, and it shows no signs of abating.

    In 2010, America's top 20 labor unions gave more than $68 million in campaign contributions to federal candidates -- with 94 percent of the total going to Democrats and just 4 percent to Republicans.

    Most of the total -- 88 percent -- came from political action committees (PACs) associated with those 20 unions, and the remaining 12 percent came from individual union members. A similar trend can be seen in state and local political campaigns. Fifteen unions gave at least $1 million to Democrats during the 2008 and 2010 campaigns. Combined, their donations totaled more than $206 million, of which fully 91 percent went to Democrats.
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/g...=55&type=group


    Despite 40 percent of its union members voting Republican, the AFL-CIO has relentlessly opposed letting rank-and-file workers choose whether or where a portion of their union dues gets spent for political candidates. The AFL-CIO allocated $44 million to support candidates in the 2004 election cycle, with perhaps 95 percent or more of this money going to Democrats. (Same source)

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Public sector unions do not share the same history with private sector unions.



    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/g...=55&type=group


    Despite 40 percent of its union members voting Republican, the AFL-CIO has relentlessly opposed letting rank-and-file workers choose whether or where a portion of their union dues gets spent for political candidates. The AFL-CIO allocated $44 million to support candidates in the 2004 election cycle, with perhaps 95 percent or more of this money going to Democrats. (Same source)
    Welcome to Debate Politics! Great post.
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    joke Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Brilliant response, thank you for showing me how smart you are and how crazy I am.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Welcome to Debate Politics! Great post.
    Thank you! Great forum. Looking forward to debate. And fun.

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