Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

=Catawba;1059355859]Then you haven't been paying attention. We need to cut our spending as well, we spend way to much and we have way too little income since we slashed the progressive tax rate in this country. I'll say it again we need both spending cuts and to eliminate the tax cuts to the wealthy if we are ever going to dig our way out of the hole we are in.
History has shown us that the tax cuts to the rich did not result in new jobs in this country. Every tax cut produced a short-term bubble followed by a recession, this last one almost a Great Depression, all while the middle class continues to decline.

You really love that term progressive tax rates but as you have shown you haven't a clue as to how much revenue that actually generated for the govt. You are so obsessed with how much someone else pays that it doesn't give you a lot of credibility on the issue. I am still waiting for you or anyone else to explain to me how tax rate cuts under Reagan of 10-10-5% to all taxpayers doubled govt. tax revenue? Or how the Bush tax rate cuts had similar results of growing tax revenue? Very frustrating dealing with people who don't know history or argue the indefensible. Just makes you look foolish. You actually believe tax cuts for the rich are making the middle class poorer? Prove it. My bet is that a lot of those middle class people who have declined have similar class envy positions as you.

You continue to buy the Obama rhetoric yet Obama supported the extension of the tax cuts and actually signed the bill. In addition he added 3.5 trillion to the debt in just two years with another 1.6 trillion this year which will add more debt in 3 years than Bush added in 8. Tax all the wealth away from the rich and you still won't pay down the debt. You don't have any concept of how much 14.3 trillion dollars is. Let me help you, it is almost the entire U.S Economy.

No expert, I just don't hide from the statistics.

You haven't offered any statistics, just opinions and projections. In the last 10 years the debt has grown by 9 trillion dollars so if you got that trillion dollars over ten years the debt would still be over 8 trillion dollars? How much do you think the 15 million unemployed people are paying in income taxes? You certainly aren't an expert inspite of trying to come across as one.

American · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Then you haven't been paying attention. We need to cut our spending as well, we spend way to much and we have way too little income since we slashed the progressive tax rate in this country. I'll say it again we need both spending cuts and to eliminate the tax cuts to the wealthy if we are ever going to dig our way out of the hole we are in.
History has shown us that the tax cuts to the rich did not result in new jobs in this country. Every tax cut produced a short-term bubble followed by a recession, this last one almost a Great Depression, all while the middle class continues to decline.

No expert, I just don't hide from the statistics.

What would you say if we cut the entire defense budget?

Catawba · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

American said:
What would you say if we cut the entire defense budget?

I am for maintaining an adequate defense of our country, not of our world wide occupation forces. The two wars we are in have cost us over 3 trillion dollars alone, exceeding the cost of Vietnam or WWII. And neither Iraq or Afghanistan attacked us or their neighbors.

We currently spend as much as the rest of the world combined on military. We could easily cut our military by 3/4 and still be the most powerful country on the planet.

MaggieD · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
I am for maintaining an adequate defense of our country, not of our world wide occupation forces. The two wars we are in have cost us over 3 trillion dollars alone, exceeding the cost of Vietnam or WWII. And neither Iraq or Afghanistan attacked us or their neighbors.

We currently spend as much as the rest of the world combined on military. We could easily cut our military by 3/4 and still be the most powerful country on the planet.

And then we could afford to pay public sector union workers more money.

Whovian · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

pbrauer said:
I don't see that as a problem, all costs are just passed on the the consumer.

Adam Smith, the author of Weath Of Nations (1776), is considered the father of modern capitalism, do you think he would favor moving the manufacturing base off shore to escape taxes?????

Then you really are off your game (not that you're ever really on it). It's sad that you are unable to comprehend that maintaining manufacturing facilities here in the states for many things and passing that higher cost onto consumers would kill many businesses today. To think consumers would simply pay the highercosts and think nothing of it, is patently stupid. You may be willing to pay 4 times the cost of a foreign made product, but many others are not.

Your mention of Adam Smith is a huge strawman, possibly the biggest you've ever tried to use. It is ridiculous to compare 1776 to 2011 in that way. It's not a matter of approval or disapproval regarding moving manufacturing offshore, it's a matter of reality of costs. It's simply less expensive, so that's why it's done.

You also might want to quote the complete title, 'An Inquiry into The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations'.

Here... educate yourself...
Complete text: An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations

Hell... Smith even predicted the rise of China as a manufacturing country...

Book 4, Chapter 9, paragraph 41...

The perfection of manufacturing industry, it must be remembered, depends altogether upon the division of labour; and the degree to which the division of labour can be introduced into any manufacture is necessarily regulated, it has already been shown, *85 by the extent of the market. But the great extent of the empire of China, the vast multitude of its inhabitants, the variety of climate, and consequently of productions in its different provinces, and the easy communication by means of water carriage between the greater part of them, render the home market of that country of so great extent as to be alone sufficient to support very great manufactures, and to admit of very considerable subdivisions of labour. The home market of China is, perhaps, in extent, not much inferior to the market of all the different countries of Europe put together. *86 A more extensive foreign trade, however, which to this great home market added the foreign market of all the rest of the world; especially if any considerable part of this trade was carried on in Chinese ships; could scarce fail to increase very much the manufactures of China, and to improve very much the productive powers of its manufacturing industry. By a more extensive navigation, the Chinese would naturally learn the art of using and constructing themselves all the different machines made use of in other countries, as well as the other *87 improvements of art and industry which are practised in all the different parts of the world. Upon their present plan they have little opportunity except that of the Japanese.

So yet again, you are shown to not have the slightest clue what you're talking about, and your own source works against you.

Here endeth the lesson.

Catawba · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

MaggieD said:
And then we could afford to pay public sector union workers more money.

I doubt it, education would first have to become a priority in this country.

Donc · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
What's the matter, Catawba, having a problem answering the questions?

Speaking of questions, how about you answering the question I ask you in post #1374? Which is….
:2wave:

Your contending that paying union dues, that you earned, if you’re a public sector employee is taxpayer funding of Unions. is that correct?

Fine. here are the rules and guidelines. Go down and familiarize yourself with the rules and we can start maybe next Monday.I’ll PM a mod that is familiar with the true debate format and see if we can sit it up.

Your contending that paying union dues, that you earned, if you’re a public sector employee is taxpayer funding of Unions. is that correct?

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ThePlayDrive · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I can't believe that this is still going on...(sorry for the useless contribution, but I'm just sayin'...).

cpwill · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

pbrauer said:
Why don't read what the man wrote, he said he doesn't take him seriously? Do you know what that means? Clue: It doesn't mean he has to detail to YOU or anyone else what Klaven got wrong. HE DOESN'T TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY!!!!

ah. so it's deliberately ceding the argument by dint of not wishing to deign to respond?

cpwill · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
I doubt it, education would first have to become a priority in this country.

education spending has exploded even as scores have plummeted. methinks more money isn't the solution.

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

donc said:
Speaking of questions, how about you answering the question I ask you in post #1374? Which is….
:2wave:

Your contending that paying union dues, that you earned, if you’re a public sector employee is taxpayer funding of Unions. is that correct?

that is absolutely true, public union employees are paid by the taxpayer and forced to participate in the union if they want the job thus have no choice but to contribute some of their taxpayer funded paycheck to the unions. Logic 101 says taxpayer funds are going to the unions.

Catawba · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
education spending has exploded even as scores have plummeted. methinks more money isn't the solution.

We spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined. Now that is a priority!

You get what you pay for!

randel · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
that is absolutely true, public union employees are paid by the taxpayer and forced to participate in the union if they want the job thus have no choice but to contribute some of their taxpayer funded paycheck to the unions. Logic 101 says taxpayer funds are going to the unions.

once more, a service was performed, the money received was called WAGES...the taxpayers have no claim to this money ....they are paying for services rendered. you sure seem to have a hard time comprehending this.

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
once more, a service was performed, the money received was called WAGES...the taxpayers have no claim to this money ....they are paying for services rendered. you sure seem to have a hard time comprehending this.

Unions force payment of dues, what part of that don't you understand? Your support of unions and total ignorance of business as well as logic is quite telling.

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
We spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined. Now that is a priority!

You get what you pay for!

Here is the 2010 Federal Budget for Expenses, tell me what you would cut?

Defense 696.1
International Affairs 45.2
Gen. Science, Space 30.9
Energy 11.5
Natural resources/env 41.6
Agriculture 23.2
Commerce -82.9
Transportation 92.5
Community Dev 24.5
Education/Train/Social 125.1
Health 369
Medicare 451.6
Income Security 624
Social Security 706.7
Veterans Benefits 108.4
Justice 55.2
General Govt. 18.1
Net Interest 196.9

Total 3537.6

randel · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Unions force payment of dues, what part of that don't you understand? Your support of unions and total ignorance of business as well as logic is quite telling.

ahh yes...when proven wrong, respond with personal attack....as i explained earlier to you, again, which you choose to ignore, nothing is forced.

Whovian · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
We spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined. Now that is a priority!

You get what you pay for!

sorry, but you're full of a smelly brown substance...

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This list is based on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) Military Expenditure Database which calculates military expenditure data for 2009 (in constant 2008 US$).

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
ahh yes...when proven wrong, respond with personal attack....as i explained earlier to you, again, which you choose to ignore, nothing is forced.

Right, the individuals could go on unemployment instead of getting a paying job and paying union dues. As for the personal attack claim, I stated my opinion based upon dealings with you. It is my opinion.

American · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
I am for maintaining an adequate defense of our country, not of our world wide occupation forces. The two wars we are in have cost us over 3 trillion dollars alone, exceeding the cost of Vietnam or WWII. And neither Iraq or Afghanistan attacked us or their neighbors.

We currently spend as much as the rest of the world combined on military. We could easily cut our military by 3/4 and still be the most powerful country on the planet.

On what experience and data do you base this assertion?

randel · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Right, the individuals could go on unemployment instead of getting a paying job and paying union dues. As for the personal attack claim, I stated my opinion based upon dealings with you. It is my opinion.

call it what you will, it is par for you when proven wrong....again, they have a choice when they apply for the job...if you don't have a problem, great...if you do, you don't have to work here...you have 30 days...they have a choice.

EarlzP · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

MaggieD said:
Well, you're the second poster on your side of the union controversy who doesn't understand analogies. A real shame.

I wonder if others are as tired as I am of your referencing those tax cuts. Do you even know what a defined benefit plan is? I'm guessing the answer is, "No." Or maybe it's, "Yes!! But I want one anyhow!!!" Well, middle class taxpayers can't afford to indulge you much longer.

I think your concerns over middle class wage earners and defined benefit plans are about to be resolved. Try to be patient the middle class will not be around much longer

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
call it what you will, it is par for you when proven wrong....again, they have a choice when they apply for the job...if you don't have a problem, great...if you do, you don't have to work here...you have 30 days...they have a choice.

You have yet to prove anyone wrong on any issue but you do cheerlead a lot. How does the union dues get paid by the teachers in Wisconsin? Do they write a check or have it automatically deducted and sent to the union? Let me answer it for you, it is a payroll deduction thus taxpayer money goes directly to the unions as the employee never gets the money even though part of his/her compensation.

iamitter · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Whovian said:
sorry, but you're full of a smelly brown substance...

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This list is based on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) Military Expenditure Database which calculates military expenditure data for 2009 (in constant 2008 US$).

Well, we spend 43% of the world's total. It's still pretty significant.

Conservative · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Whovian said:
sorry, but you're full of a smelly brown substance...

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This list is based on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) Military Expenditure Database which calculates military expenditure data for 2009 (in constant 2008 US$).

Catawba does make a lot of wild accusations that he/she can never back up. I believe most of it is for shock value and attention. He/she should be ashamed but apparently has little pride.

iamitter · Mar 17, 2011

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

American said:
On what experience and data do you base this assertion?

We spend 6.6 times as much as China, the next largest spender. (3/4)*6.6>1

Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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