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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    You have got to be kidding me.
    You have to admit, at least a good portion of libs believe that anyone whom has attained success in this country somehow "owe" what libs consider "excess" to be common property, and consider the wealthy to have stolen their wealth from the masses...Michael Moore said as much.


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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Have you paid any attention to Catawba's posts along with others here regarding tax cuts being an expense and having to be paid for? Maybe I should have said some liberals or even many liberals vs. the blanket statement of liberals.
    I read the entire thread. Tax cuts are an expense in that, if we want a balanced budget, we need to cut spending by the corresponding decrease in revenue - that's it.

    And yes, you should not have made the blanket statement. Some liberals you could maybe make a case for. "Many" I find highly doubtful and you'd have to back up your claims.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You have to admit, at least a good portion of libs believe that anyone whom has attained success in this country somehow "owe" what libs consider "excess" to be common property, and consider the wealthy to have stolen their wealth from the masses...Michael Moore said as much.


    j-mac
    Oh, come on, Michael Moore is as representative of liberals as [insert someone who isn't representative of conservatives] is of conservatives.

    There's definitely a number who believe that, but I don't know where you two get "a good portion" or "many".
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    I read the entire thread. Tax cuts are an expense in that, if we want a balanced budget, we need to cut spending by the corresponding decrease in revenue - that's it.

    And yes, you should not have made the blanket statement. Some liberals you could maybe make a case for. "Many" I find highly doubtful and you'd have to back up your claims.
    No, you have to grow your way out of a debt this size, you cannot raise taxes and put 15 million Americans back to work and paying taxes. If you are included in calling tax cuts an expense then you are part of the many that I should have said.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    Oh, come on, Michael Moore is as representative of liberals as [insert someone who isn't representative of conservatives] is of conservatives.

    There's definitely a number who believe that, but I don't know where you two get "a good portion" or "many".

    Because you see it in here daily, what with all the "tax the rich" crap. One thing Obama has changed is that he has stoked class warfare to a fever pitch.


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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No, you have to grow your way out of a debt this size, you cannot raise taxes and put 15 million Americans back to work and paying taxes. If you are included in calling tax cuts an expense then you are part of the many that I should have said.
    I don't know what logic you have that made you go from "I really don't think that liberals have any concept of personal income as apparently they believe it all belongs to the govt." to "thus allowing people to keep more of what they earn is a govt. expense.".
    A tax cut is a loss in revenue and has to be paid for somehow - usually a spending cut.

    I don't disagree with your first statement, as to the growing. Tbh, I don't see us getting out of this debt, ever. We're going to fold on it somehow, by defaulting, devaluing our currency to pay for it, or just collapsing our govt.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Because you see it in here daily, what with all the "tax the rich" crap. One thing Obama has changed is that he has stoked class warfare to a fever pitch.


    j-mac
    What you're saying now is different than "a good portion of libs believe that anyone whom has attained success in this country somehow "owe" what libs consider "excess" to be common property".
    A progressive income tax places more of the burden on the wealthy, but I don't see anyone saying they necessarily owe the country it or say it is "common property".
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    To anyone who is interested, here's the mathematical, economic explanation for why it's a bad idea to allow teachers' unions. I've tried to keep it as simple as possible, but there are some economic graphs so if it's confusing, let me know.

    Here we go: Imagine that there were no public unions, and the wages of teachers were allowed to rise and fall according to market forces. Under such a system, governments would naturally increase wages when there was a shortage of qualified teachers, and naturally decrease wages when there were lots of qualified teachers who couldn't find jobs. Here's how that would look on a supply/demand graph.



    As you can see, the quantity of people willing to supply their labor (i.e. teachers) increases as the price of labor (i.e. salaries) increases. The quantity of labor that the market demands (i.e. taxpayers who need to hire teachers to fill the classrooms) DECREASES as the price of labor increases, because they can't hire as many people if each of them costs more. The point where the supply and demand lines intersect is called the "equilibrium price." This is the wage that teachers would naturally earn in a free market system.

    Under such a system, who benefits? The teachers or the taxpayers? They both do, as this graph illustrates:


    Why do they both benefit? Because even if the wage was lower than that, some teachers would still be willing to work. They benefit by earning a higher wage than they actually require in order to take the job. The amount that the teachers collectively benefit from such a system is the area of the yellow triangle. Conversely, even if the wage was higher than that, the taxpayers would still be willing to hire some teachers. They benefit by employing public servants who earn a lower wage than the taxpayers might be willing to spend. The amount that the taxpayers collectively benefit from such a system is the area of the blue triangle. The combined area of the yellow and blue triangles is the amount that society as a whole benefits. With me so far?

    Now, what happens if we introduce a teachers' union into the graph? A teachers' union exists to try to negotiate an ABOVE-market wage for teachers. So let's assume that they're successful in doing so. What happens?



    Under this system, the wage is artificially inflated above what the free market would naturally decide. This results in far more qualified teachers willing to supply their labor than there are schools willing to demand it. This causes unemployment, as the red arrow illustrates.

    And who benefits from the union-negotiated wages? Well, the union succeeded in making teachers better off. As you can see, the yellow area (the amount that teachers benefit) is now slightly bigger than before. Unfortunately, the blue triangle (the amount that the taxpayers benefit) is substantially smaller than before. The taxpayers are the biggest losers. But that's not all - the overall benefit to society is actually smaller as a result of union-negotiated wages! See the gray area in the graph? That represents a deadweight loss. Neither the taxpayers NOR the teachers reap the benefits of it, and society as a whole loses out.

    And all that extra unemployment among qualified teachers, that didn't exist before we introduced the union into the graph? That makes the students worse off.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-10-11 at 11:49 PM.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    When the public employees can bargain for more money than the states can afford to spend it does destroy the states economies. The expectations are unrealistic. Where is the money to come from?

    When Democrats gain control of a city or a state it almost always in recent years goes into a death spiral one aspect of which is the public employees gaining employment protections that undermine performance, pensions that are impossible to fullfill, benefits that bleed the budget. It's an evil, destructive partnership the Democrats have with the unions.


    What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in
    common?

    Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn’t elected a Republican
    mayor since 1961;

    Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn’t elected one since 1954;

    Cincinnati, OH (3rd)…since 1984;

    Cleveland, OH (4th)…since 1989;

    Miami, FL (5th) has never had a Republican mayor;

    St. Louis, MO (6th)….since 1949;

    El Paso, TX (7th) has never had a Republican mayor;

    Milwaukee, WI (8th)…since 1908;

    Philadelphia, PA (9th)…since 1952;

    Newark, NJ(10th)…since 1907.


    How about the states? The map juxtaposes rather neatly with the red/blue map.


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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    I don't know what logic you have that made you go from "I really don't think that liberals have any concept of personal income as apparently they believe it all belongs to the govt." to "thus allowing people to keep more of what they earn is a govt. expense.".
    A tax cut is a loss in revenue and has to be paid for somehow - usually a spending cut.

    I don't disagree with your first statement, as to the growing. Tbh, I don't see us getting out of this debt, ever. We're going to fold on it somehow, by defaulting, devaluing our currency to pay for it, or just collapsing our govt.
    Can you see any situation where tax cuts increase govt. revenue? How do you explain that happening during the Reagan and Bush tax rate cuts? Think about it and I am sure you will come up with something.

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