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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Do you actually know nothing of the unions role in politics, or are you just playing dumb in this post?
    Yep. I know that the teachers' unions have opposed every single worthwhile education reform in the last 30 years, with the exception of those that directly benefited themselves. And I challenged you to prove me wrong by providing a counterexample, which you have still failed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba
    No one's right to decent education is threatened, until you remove the rights of citizens to bargain collectively on their behalf.
    Citizens already have the right to bargain collectively on behalf of the people whose education is being threatened. It's called an election. And as far as I know, no one is trying to outlaw elections anywhere in the country.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    As I just reported Wisconsin has a labor force of 2.5 million with 400,000 union employees that the taxpayers of Wisconsin are funding. Don't think that the 2.1 million non union employees have a lot of empathy for these 400,000 union employees. The taxpayers of Wisconsin won this one.
    Table 5. Union affiliation of employed wage and salary workers by state
    Sorry, the taxpayers didn't vote for the issue of taking away collective bargaining. I believe there is a reason for Walker not campaigning on it, because he very likely would have lost the race. There is polling which shows that 2 GOP Senators would be recalled. Stay tuned. Let's see in January if the Gov. himself doesn't get recalled.


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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yep. I know that the teachers' unions have opposed every single worthwhile education reform in the last 30 years, with the exception of those that directly benefited themselves. And I challenged you to prove me wrong by providing a counterexample, which you have still failed to do.



    Citizens already have the right to bargain collectively on behalf of the people whose education is being threatened. It's called an election. And as far as I know, no one is trying to outlaw elections anywhere in the country.
    1. The interests of students are often directly in line with the interests of teachers - safer schools, smaller class sizes, limited school days, more instruction time, etc.
    2. Please least every 'worthwhile' reform that the teachers unions have fought against and explain why they were worthwhile and not legitimately opposed by the teachers' unions. (Worthwhile is a tricky word. What you call worthwhile may not actually benefit students).

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Sorry, the taxpayers didn't vote for the issue of taking away collective bargaining. I believe there is a reason for Walker not campaigning on it, because he very likely would have lost the race. There is polling which shows that 2 GOP Senators would be recalled. Stay tuned. Let's see in January if the Gov. himself doesn't get recalled.
    Knock yourself out....Public Service Unions all across the nation are being REFORMED. The People have a right to speak on this issue, its called a democratic process. The PEOPLE of all states are beginning to be educated about the abuse of using the Union Membership to laundry tax money to support politicians who in turn get into bed with the Unions in order to give FAT CONTRACTS, just as publicly evidenced in Wisconsin with the 14 who were elected to Negotiate for THE PEOPLE at the STATE LEVEL with these Unions but instead acted with treason and sided with those they were supposed to be ENGAGED WITH in collective Bargaining. Public Service Unions are anything but an example Human Rights, but rather are a better example of Human Nature and Corruption.


    This is much like the United Auto Workers now holding a major portion of ownership in General Motors....does anyone really expect any CONTRACTS that favor the REAL OWNERS of that corporation....The Private Stockholders who are being Hosed?
    Last edited by Walter; 03-10-11 at 09:03 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yeah, those poor minority students in failing inner-city schools are "corporate interests." How dare anyone care about their academic progress, when there are more important things like making sure that no teacher ever gets fired under any circumstance, no matter how incompetent.

    I agree, which is why we need to protect the right of all Americans to have a decent education, and the right of all Americans to get the most efficient public services from their government possible...even in the face of labor corporations that are working against those goals.
    This line, right here, just proved and solidified your lack of knowledge on the subject. Those students and their schools are HUGE corporate interests. Many of the ineffective policies government passes in education are passed because their corporate friends have an interest in their learning materials being put in such schools. They also have an interest in placing their unhealthy food/drink products in school cafeterias since parents in these neighborhoods don't protest against it like they do in the suburbs. Corporations also have a huge interest in charter schools since limitations that may apply to their influence in non-charter public schools don't apply. You can just do a quick search on google to see how interested corporations are in schools.

    Just like media, prisons and everything else in society, corporations go where they can make money.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You have no idea about my job history and no idea about where I get my information and it's telling that you are incapable of arguing about ideas without calling a person's personal life into question. It's all telling that you can't grasp the fact that people can disagree with you while also being knowledgeable about a subject. It's also telling that you link support of unions with no job experiences as if teachers, police officers and other union members aren't working on real jobs. You treat people like you have a God complex. Get over yourself.
    So I will take that as you really don't have a clue about the Bush record that you were complaining about then support full collective bargaining rights for Public Employees that even the Federal Public Employee unions don't have. It doesn't appear that you know what the bill in Wisconsin actually eliminates just like most of the protesters there.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. The interests of students are often directly in line with the interests of teachers - safer schools, smaller class sizes, limited school days, more instruction time, etc.
    Yes, and often they are not. And whenever they aren't, teachers' unions ALWAYS side against the students. There is not a single exception to this that I am aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    2. Please least every 'worthwhile' reform that the teachers unions have fought against and explain why they were worthwhile and not legitimately opposed by the teachers' unions. (Worthwhile is a tricky word. What you call worthwhile may not actually benefit students).
    Merit pay, chartered schools, a streamlined process for getting rid of bad teachers, tenure reform, vouchers, and online education come readily to mind. All things that would benefit the students, but not the teachers' union. And surprise surprise, the teachers' unions oppose them all.

    Now here comes the part where you provide the talking points that the teachers' unions fed you explaining how horrible all those things are. Don't bother; I already know what they are and have no desire to divert the topic of the thread away from teachers' unions and towards a more broad focus on education reform in general. There are plenty of other threads where we can have that debate.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-10-11 at 09:02 PM.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    This line, right here, just proved and solidified your lack of knowledge on the subject. Those students and their schools are HUGE corporate interests. Many of the ineffective policies government passes in education are passed because their corporate friends have an interest in their learning materials being put in such schools. They also have an interest in placing their unhealthy food/drink products in school cafeterias since parents in these neighborhoods don't protest against it like they do in the suburbs. Corporations also have a huge interest in charter schools since limitations that may apply to their influence in non-charter public schools don't apply. You can just do a quick search on google to see how interested corporations are in schools.

    Just like media, prisons and everything else in society, corporations go where they can make money.
    So it is corporations and the material that has generated the poor student performance but never the teachers? Got it, that is partisan bs.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yep. I know that the teachers' unions have opposed every single worthwhile education reform in the last 30 years, with the exception of those that directly benefited themselves. And I challenged you to prove me wrong by providing a counterexample, which you have still failed to do.
    As I have already said they have pushed for smaller class size and longer instruction time, and another I just remembered, special programs for special needs kids, all of these have been proven successful in public and private schools alike. Because you refuse to see that does not prove your case.



    Citizens already have the right to bargain collectively on behalf of the people whose education is being threatened. It's called an election. And as far as I know, no one is trying to outlaw elections anywhere in the country.
    You don't have to outlaw elections to control them, all you have to do is remove the big money competition, unless you are of the impression that its not the case that whichever side can provide the biggest money in elections win.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. The interests of students are often directly in line with the interests of teachers - safer schools, smaller class sizes, limited school days, more instruction time, etc.
    of course we are

    but when my industry protects the ineffective with tenure, when unions negotiate pensions that put our great grandchildren at fiduciary risk, when pay scales are tied to service instead of results...

    etc

    as for more instruction time, teachers in my district who do block schedules enjoy 100 minutes of prep per day

    i find it obscenely taking advantage, for example, of all the teachers in my district (which, like all districts, is facing severe crunch) who get by on 50

    that's the first thing that should go in my east bay, california, public school district, in my opinion---block preps

    instead, we lay off good young teachers and increase class size (especially in second and third grades)

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