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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Opposing collective bargaining is extremely pro-capitalism. As far as I'm concerned, capitalism is about competition, not about a total lack of government intervention. Anyone who attempts to monopolize an industry - whether it's steel, web browsers, or labor - deserves to have the government break them apart. Unions are no different than any other kind of trust or monopoly, and should be treated as such. Public unions are the worst of all because they steal from the public, rather than just the consumers.

    As Adam Smith himself noted, "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." Unions most certainly do exactly that.

    Adam Smith was referring to collusion, in prices as well as wages. He also said:

    "It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate."



    If Unions are collusions, then all Unions should be made illegal. That will take us back to Adam Smith's time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Adam Smith was referring to collusion, in prices as well as wages. He also said:
    I'm aware of that. My point is that wages ARE a price, and unions are therefore no different than, say, a steel trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil
    "It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate."
    Some of those things were specific to Smith's time, and others don't apply to the public sector at all. For example:

    - The "masters" in this case are NOT few in number. The "masters" of public sector jobs are the people.
    - It is not true in the United States in 2011 that there are no laws against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In fact, it's far easier to raise wages than to lower them.
    - The "master" cannot hold out longer because the "master" doesn't have any stock that they've already acquired. In fact, the "master" is drowning in debt, and relies on those workers to provide services to society.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil
    If Unions are collusions, then all Unions should be made illegal. That will take us back to Adam Smith's time.
    I wouldn't be opposed to limiting unions. But my immediate concern is with public unions, and even more specifically, the teachers' unions.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-10-11 at 07:44 AM.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They can assemble and petition all they like, but that doesn't give them the right to collude to fix prices any moreso than any other trust. A union is not merely a lobbying group for higher wages; they actually expect a seat at the negotiating table, they employ strongarm tactics to get it, and workers have no choice but to give them money. If workers want to join a special interest group, of their own volition, that seeks to increase public wages at the expense of taxpayers by electing certain candidates to political office, they are free to do so. But let's not pretend that's what a union is.
    What is a Union then?

    Since Union negotiators is the representatives of the union members, then they must have a place at the negotiating table for the negotiation to take place.

    If you see group bargaining by workers as illegal business collusion. Then all Unions, not just public workers union, should be made illegal. No one want them to be given more rights than any other "trust".
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm aware of that. My point is that wages ARE a price, and unions are therefore no different than, say, a steel trust.



    Some of those things were specific to Smith's time, and others don't apply to the public sector at all. For example:

    - The "masters" in this case are NOT few in number. The "masters" of public sector jobs are the people.
    - It is not true in the United States in 2011 that there are no laws against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In fact, it's far easier to raise wages than to lower them.
    - The "master" cannot hold out longer because the "master" doesn't have any stock that they've already acquired. In fact, the "master" is drowning in debt, and relies on those workers to provide services to society.



    I wouldn't be opposed to limiting unions. But my immediate concern is with public unions, and even more specifically, the teachers' unions.

    Why "limit", illegal business collusion should be eliminated, don't you think?

    And I have noted that the world is different from Adam Smith's time, that's why I said your position will take us back closer to his time.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-10-11 at 07:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Why "limit", illegal business collusion should be eliminated, don't you think?
    Sure, but private sector unions simply aren't my immediate concern, and frankly they don't have very much power anymore anyway. I'll be happy with steps taken to reduce the influence of public unions. Particularly the teachers' union, which is even worse than your average union since they not only inflate the budgets but play an actively harmful role in our education system.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil
    And I have noted that the world is different from Adam Smith's time, that's why I said your position will take us closer to his time.
    I suppose, if you view all public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era. I tend to view it through the prism of whether or not it's actually beneficial in THIS society and this era.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-10-11 at 07:56 AM.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    It seems like a lot of people here are confused as to what collective bargaining is.

    A big part of it is the ability to keep employers to stick to agreements made with employees.

    It's not a process that forces employers to do whatever employees want of them, simply assures that employees are able to negotiate with their bosses, and that any agreements made stay in practice.
    Of course not.........now put the money in the bag.....or were gonna shut you down........
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sure, but private sector unions simply aren't my immediate concern, and frankly they don't have very much power anymore anyway. I'll be happy with steps taken to reduce the influence of public unions. Particularly the teachers' union, which is even worse than your average union since they not only inflate the budgets but play an actively harmful role in our education system.
    From your strong language against them using "collusion" as a reason against them, one would think you would be more passionate against "collusion" no matter where it is.


    I suppose, if you view all public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era. I tend to view it through the prism of whether or not it's actually beneficial in THIS society and this era.
    Saying that it will take it us back to Adam Smith's time is "public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era"? Do you do make assumptions, don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    From your strong language against them using "collusion" as a reason against them, one would think you would be more passionate against "collusion" no matter where it is.
    Well, I'm a pragmatist. I have no problem with policies that advance society's well-being, even if they aren't the most all-encompassing policies I can imagine. Better to pick one's battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil
    Saying that it will take it us back to Adam Smith's time is "public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era"? Do you do make assumptions, don't you?
    Except I didn't view it through that prism, you did. You're the one who keeps referring to it bringing us back to Adam Smith's time. This line of thinking is essentially "300 years ago they didn't have Policy X, and now they do. Therefore repealing Policy X will cause society to regress 300 years." This, of course, is wholly illogical, as substituting any modern policy with which YOU disagree will quickly demonstrate.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-10-11 at 08:10 AM.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    when it is blown to a national scale inevitably it is done so by the union opposition. Everybody has heard about Chris Christie taking on the unions; the union's response to him made him a national figure. where the matter simply goes up for debate, everyone has their say, arguments are flung around, and then a deal get's hammered out, nobody hears about it.



    i would of course disagree what if you were to simply send out a poll asking if it would be okay to increase teacher compensation in line with inflation, with the voters being asked their permission before they are put on the hook for above and beyond that? if you were to simply ask Americans if workers should be forced to join unions and pay dues in order to teach? that's the substance of what this "collective bargaining rights limitation" is about.



    Wisconsin just became like 26 other states that limit collective bargaining. Wisconsins' employees retain broader ability to collectively bargain than federal employees. that's hardly extremist.

    Of course you would disagree, there is a poll sent out it's called a contract. The employees represented by their union reps have the right by vote to accept or reject a contract, the employer representing the public is in no way obligated to sign a contract that is not in the best interest of the people they were elected to serve. Both sides are represented

    The polls show that the people of Wisconsin

    Wisconsin Poll: Support for Budget Cutting, Not for Weakening Collective Bargaining Rights - Rasmussen Reports™

    " A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed. At the same time, 44% support a 10% pay cut for all state workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) are opposed. That’s partly because 27% of Wisconsin voters believe state workers are paid too much and 16% believe they are paid too little. Forty-nine percent (49%) believe the pay of state workers is about right."

    Again the voters are asked permission, like the union members they are asked to ratify a new contract for public employees.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Wow, what the f*ck?

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