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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    But mertex's comments were on topic? Hmmm, got it
    Kinda looks like you finally got the Wisconsin thread derailed. I am proud of anyway, since it seems you have somehow managed to not to succumb to your natural knee jerk reaction of posting RANDOM BLS.GOV numbers…yet.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The tax cuts worked, 8.5 million jobs created from 2003-2007. The housing bubble burst and the financial meltdown as a result negated the effects of the tax cuts which after a time wear out, just like a pay raise wears out over time and you expect another one. Cut the corporate tax rate, revise the capital gains tax code, restructure the depreciation schedules, and reward individuals for innovation and creativity, all contrary to the Obama beliefs and economic model.
    Your right however if you look at the numbers below you will see that the labor force increased between 2001 and 2009 and where more people found work the unemployment rate went up during the same period of time

    Unemployment numbers are also effected by the two year extension to unemployment benefits, The housing bubble collapsed accounting for millions of lost jobs

    The housing bubble has collapsed , the tax cuts have been extended for two years, where do you see work coming from?

    If we are going to have a honest debate every thing has to be put on the table, other wise we are just repeating talking points, is that all this is about?

    I am retired from private sector employment, My daughter is a doctor, I have one grandson they will survive the down turn in our economy, but what about all of those who have lost their jobs lost their homes and can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, if we continue to support failed policies and can't move pass rhetorical talking points we are going to continue to sink into an economic pit that we can not get out of


    United States Unemployment data

    YEAR.............LABOR FORCE.......EMPLOYED......UNEMPLOYED......UNEMP RATE
    2010 YTD Average 153,888,667 139,063,917 14,824,750 9.6%
    2009 08BM 154,142,000 139,877,000 14,265,000 9.3%
    2008 08BM 154,287,000 145,362,000 8,924,000 5.8%
    2007 08BM 153,124,000 146,047,000 7,078,000 4.6%
    2006 08BM 151,428,000 144,427,000 7,001,000 4.6%
    2005 08BM 149,320,000 141,730,000 7,591,000 5.1%
    2004 147,401,000 139,252,000 8,149,000 5.5%
    2003 146,510,000 137,736,000 8,774,000 6.0%
    2002 144,863,000 136,485,000 8,378,000 5.8%
    2001 143,734,000 136,933,000 6,801,000 4.7%
    2000 142,583,000 136,891,000 5,692,000 4.0%
    1999 139,368,000 133,488,000 5,880,000 4.2%
    1998 137,673,000 131,463,000 6,210,000 4.5%
    1997 136,297,000 129,558,000 6,739,000 4.9%
    1996 133,943,000 126,708,000 7,236,000 5.4%
    1995 132,304,000 124,900,000 7,404,000 5.6%
    1994 131,056,000 123,060,000 7,996,000 6.1%
    1993 129,200,000 120,259,000 8,940,000 6.9%
    1992 128,105,000 118,492,000 9,613,000 7.5%
    1991 126,346,000 117,718,000 8,628,000 6.8%
    1990 125,840,000 118,793,000 7,047,000 5.6%
    1989 123,869,000 117,342,000 6,528,000 5.3%
    1988 121,669,000 114,968,000 6,701,000 5.5%
    1987 119,865,000 112,440,000 7,425,000 6.2%
    1986 117,834,000 109,597,000 8,237,000 7.0%
    1985 115,462,000 107,150,000 8,312,000 7.2%
    1984 113,544,000 105,005,000 8,539,000 7.5%
    1983 111,551,000 100,834,000 10,717,000 9.6%
    1982 110,204,000 99,526,000 10,678,000 9.7%
    1981 108,670,000 100,397,000 8,273,000 7.6%
    1980 106,940,000 99,303,000 7,637,000 7.1%
    TOP

  3. #1723
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Union workers private and public are the only working americans making a decent wage and maintaining a level of competence.

    Just one example of so many are the bus crashs that have killed dozens and wounded many more. Non union tour bus drivers UNDERpaid at 8.00 an hr with no benefits are the bottom of the barrel because no one else will take the responsibliity of 45 passengerss for that kind of wage.
    There are dozens maybe hundreds of greyhounds going cross country daily and theres less fatal accidents..why? because they pay a decent wage and acctually have people with a brain not ex convicts that will take the job.
    The Corporations and the rich and influential are succesfully waging classwarfare from the top down. They have created envy and jealousy between public union workers and private non union workers. I find private sector workers MORONS for falling for this, they are the ones that are UNDER paid with no benefits, they should be striving to get what union workers are being paid, not trying to tear them down to their lvl with no benefits and no security
    Instead of waging war on working americans, why isnt the teaparty railing and attacking illegal immigration that costs us BILLIONS more than any union public sector workers that are providing us with services NONE of the rich will do themselves....
    Im a long time republican who is totally disgusted with this new teaparty that is made of and only for the rich...
    Last edited by lpast; 03-20-11 at 08:14 AM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The epitome of stupidity was the half that bought "Hope and Change". Morons.
    Reading your comment about the stupidity of people and looking at the photo to the left of it certainly causes one to pause.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    not sure i follow you on the last part, but yes, voluntary contributions do net a fair amount of cash....whether you believe that or not, i can't help
    of course you can help. you can, for example, post some numbers. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, for example, was the largest political donor of 2010, with over $87 million in 2010 alone; it oughtn't be that difficult to find some of their numbers. I would love to see it demonstrated that - of those $87 million - not a single dollar came from union dues, but rather from voluntary donations.

    except to ask you a few questions...have you belonged to a union? i believe the answer to be NO, so , your knowledge on how the unions raise money for political activities is extremely limited, to say the least....quite a few folks have money taken out of their checks in my union, for v-cap, those amounts range from a couple of dollars a week to sometimes 50-100 dollars a month
    alright, and this is automatic, or do they have to apply to have it done.

    others, of course, just have the state do the deduction for them:
    ...In Texas, for instance, the teachers’ unions are an extraordinarily powerful political force, with the Texas State Teachers’ Association running an influential PAC that reliably doles out great heaps of money, largely to Democrats, in multi-thousand-dollar increments. How powerful is the TSTA? Powerful enough that it was able to persuade school districts to use their payroll departments to collect PAC donations out of teachers’ paychecks, in violation of state law. Meditate on that for a second: These weren’t union dues being deducted out of government employees’ paychecks, but PAC donations...
    and this is above and beyond the dues they pay. i'm sure this is the same in all other unions when it comes to funding political activities.
    i'm sure it is; you always raise more money when you candget it automatically deducted rather than expecting people to actually give the money to you.

    as for the first part, the employee has the CHOICE right at the beginning of employment, to either work in the shop, and join the union, or to say no thank you, if they honestly have that big of a problem working in a union shop. and yes, a shop owner would be violating federal law by telling workers that no they can't join a union if they work for him
    i agree, it would be a violation of federal law. that is part of my point, that federal law here is unfairly tilted in favor of unions.

    but you're not answering the question. why, if union membership can be made a condition of employment, can't lack of the same? why can the union place a condition on employment that the person actually hiring and paying the worker cannot?

    that is not his choice, it is the CHOICE OF THOSE WORKING IN THE SHOP TO FORM A UNION OR NOT
    and here you contradict yourself, saying that it should be the choice of the worker whether or not he wants to be in a union, but you only seem willing to limit his choices in favor of unionization.

    I believe you know and understand this.
    i believe you know you have been caught out. whether it was your intent or no, your position is such that you are not, in fact, willing to maximize the choices of the worker. you are willing only that he be bent upon the path that you yourself have chosen.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-20-11 at 08:51 AM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Union workers private and public are the only working americans making a decent wage and maintaining a level of competence.
    really? i'm doing fairly well for myself and I would say I am extremely competent, having been meritoriously promoted and then entrusted with a highly sensitive position. My younger brother works at the non-unionized Toyota Plant in Kentucky and he is doing very well for himself, having earned a job straight out of college that it takes most engineers a few years to make. my father is a minister, and though not wealthy, is certainly more than capable of supporting himself and saving for retirement. He has 4 languages - two of them dead - under his belt and has turned down promotion 3 times now; i would certainly say he is competent.

    if anything, union membership tends to drive down wages and standards of living.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    of course you can help. you can, for example, post some numbers. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, for example, was the largest political donor of 2010, with over $87 million in 2010 alone; it oughtn't be that difficult to find some of their numbers. I would love to see it demonstrated that - of those $87 million - not a single dollar came from union dues, but rather from voluntary donations.



    alright, and this is automatic, or do they have to apply to have it done.

    others, of course, just have the state do the deduction for them:




    i'm sure it is; you always raise more money when you candget it automatically deducted rather than expecting people to actually give the money to you.



    i agree, it would be a violation of federal law. that is part of my point, that federal law here is unfairly tilted in favor of unions.

    but you're not answering the question. why, if union membership can be made a condition of employment, can't lack of the same? why can the union place a condition on employment that the person actually hiring and paying the worker cannot?



    and here you contradict yourself, saying that it should be the choice of the worker whether or not he wants to be in a union, but you only seem willing to limit his choices in favor of unionization.



    i believe you know you have been caught out. whether it was your intent or no, your position is such that you are not, in fact, willing to maximize the choices of the worker. you are willing only that he be bent upon the path that you yourself have chosen.
    wrong cp, ....if the shop is already unionized when the a person applies for a job, and they are offered a job, THEY HAVE A CHOICE THEN, TO ACCEPT THE JOB, AND WORK IN A UNION SHOP, OR TO SAY 'NO THANKS, NOT WORKING IN A UNION SHOP'....if after choosing to accept a job in a non unionized shop, and somewhere down the road, his /her co-workers decide to organize, and become unionized, in that process, the employee has a choice as well. if not happy with the new union, or just anti-union in general, if said person can find enogh support, they can get a decertification vote....the employee has choices all over the place. to pretend they don't is either speaking from lack of knowledge as to how the process and unions work, (which i believe to be the case with you cp) or just blatant dishonesty(which i don't believe to apply to you.) and no, not unionizing can't be made a condition of employment, as that choice is a right of the worker, and protected by federal law.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Reading your comment about the stupidity of people and looking at the photo to the left of it certainly causes one to pause.
    You gotta admit, haymarket's got a point here
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Your right however if you look at the numbers below you will see that the labor force increased between 2001 and 2009 and where more people found work the unemployment rate went up during the same period of time

    Unemployment numbers are also effected by the two year extension to unemployment benefits, The housing bubble collapsed accounting for millions of lost jobs

    The housing bubble has collapsed , the tax cuts have been extended for two years, where do you see work coming from?

    If we are going to have a honest debate every thing has to be put on the table, other wise we are just repeating talking points, is that all this is about?

    I am retired from private sector employment, My daughter is a doctor, I have one grandson they will survive the down turn in our economy, but what about all of those who have lost their jobs lost their homes and can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, if we continue to support failed policies and can't move pass rhetorical talking points we are going to continue to sink into an economic pit that we can not get out of
    Actually unemployment numbers are understated because they don't count the discouraged workers and individual business owners and contract workers that lost their jobs as well. Some of those are counted in the U-6 numbers which shows a truer picture of the problem we have today.

    I retired as well from the private sector after 35 years in the business world. I am a proponent of capitalism and free enterprise, not the massive expansion of govt. and the entitlement state promoted by liberalism. Our economy is consumer driven and with a growing population and labor market as you pointed out it is imperative that the Administration focus on incentive for the private sector which this Administration refuses to do. They are filled with ideologues who believe in a socialist utopia that never exists.

    There are four components to GDP and consumer consumption is the major component and that is what creates most of the jobs. People with more of their own money create jobs through increasing demand and also reducing demand for govt. "Help" which really doesn't help at all but instead creates dependence.

    The way to create jobs in this environment is to create incentive for new entities and inventions. The best way to do that is to reward individual wealth creation. Obama doesn't seem to understand that concept and believes govt. is the answer when govt. is the problem

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Actually unemployment numbers are understated because they don't count the discouraged workers and individual business owners and contract workers that lost their jobs as well. Some of those are counted in the U-6 numbers which shows a truer picture of the problem we have today.

    I retired as well from the private sector after 35 years in the business world. I am a proponent of capitalism and free enterprise, not the massive expansion of govt. and the entitlement state promoted by liberalism. Our economy is consumer driven and with a growing population and labor market as you pointed out it is imperative that the Administration focus on incentive for the private sector which this Administration refuses to do. They are filled with ideologues who believe in a socialist utopia that never exists.

    There are four components to GDP and consumer consumption is the major component and that is what creates most of the jobs. People with more of their own money create jobs through increasing demand and also reducing demand for govt. "Help" which really doesn't help at all but instead creates dependence.

    The way to create jobs in this environment is to create incentive for new entities and inventions. The best way to do that is to reward individual wealth creation. Obama doesn't seem to understand that concept and believes govt. is the answer when govt. is the problem
    I think we want the same solution and have some of the same concerns, you don't believe that the government "we the people" can create jobs, so we disagree on that issue. I believe that the government "we the people" can do things that will stimulate job growth but the stimulus needs to be dependant on the creation of jobs. That said I will repost a post I made before

    I don’t believe that raising the retirement age for federal workers will reduce the federal deficit, why? The average annual salary for full-time federal government jobs now exceeds $81,258 and The average annual federal workers compensation, including pay plus benefits, now exceeds $123,049.

    Raising the retirement age just keeps federal employees on the payroll longer, if any thing lower the retirement age and provide incentives to make that an attractive option to older higher paid federal employees. Don’t replace the employees who take the early retirement unless those jobs can not be combines with the duties of other employees

    Where reducing the federal deficit is important, reducing the deficit will not create jobs, jump starting our economy needs to be the first priority. In order to jump start our economy we need jobs. Contrary to what you hear the government can create jobs not by directly being involved in the start up of new manufacturing companies but by providing financial incentives to people from the lowest wage earners to those who would actually have the capital to invest in manufacturing.

    How? Simple repeal the tax cuts for all Americans, The tax cuts have not created the employment anticipated so why keep repeating the failed policies of the past? Repeal the tax cuts. After that if Americans want to realize the savings available let them buy American made or invest in the building in America. In other words use a tax credit to provide an incentive that will support the economy of America. If a person or corporation wants to support our economy provide the incentive based on whether they use the tax cuts in a manner that supports our economy

    IE: Susie or John Doe would see $500 per year from the tax cuts, now if they want to see that $500.00 let them invest in American manufacturing by using their purchasing power to buy American or invest in American based manufacturing. If Mary or Jim Doe would see $93,000 dollars a year let them invest in American made or American based manufacturing

    After ten years of watching trickle down trickle up it’s time to change course and find a way that ensures that the tax cuts work as intended to create American jobs. We do need private investors to create job opportunities but those investors need to be stimulated to invest in America using a tax credit to encourage investment would be a good start

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