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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So they cannot keep their job unless they pay their union dues ... I agree they have a choice, I'm not arguing they don't.

    So taxpayer money goes to the public sector via a line item in the budget in the form of public teacher salary - a portion (%) of that salary then is required to go to the union in the form of dues (or the teacher can quit and that portion will not go to the union), and the union then uses that money for various thing, one of them being support for Democrats elections who are sympathetic towards the unions.

    So follow the money...
    I follow the property. Ownership is 9/10's the law. The money stops being taxpayer money as soon as it is used as compensation for an individual's labor.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    conceited? how so?
    You are assuming people didn't freely choose to enter the contract. They did. People do have the ability to think for themselves, believe it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That's right, in today's world though who knows what contract law even is anymore, after Obama got done trashing it.
    Government in general likes to trash contract if it is advantageous for them or their buddies (like the airlines, remember that one, the CEO bailouts, remember that one, nixing pension plans, remember that one?).

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why can't a teacher negotiate their own contract personally?
    They can try. There is certainly a valid discussion to be had over whether or not someone should be able to decline union involvement. But as I said, they should be free to do so but they should also not reap the benefits which came from unions. You shouldn't get something for free. The Union is made for the very purpose of contract negotioation over compensation for labor. You collectivize the labor market to increase one's individual ability to argue for better compensation for labor. Unions are not inherently a bad thing. People have right of association and right to contract, and Union is merely these things together. It can go to bad places, just like government can. In the end, Unions become sort of a necessary evil; just like government. You do have to control it to make sure it continues to properly work for the reasons why it was created in the first place. But at the base, there's nothing wrong with Unions.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And there is the "forced" argument. Either join the union, or flip burgers.
    You can teach elsewhere, private schools and such. No one is forced. This is the same bad argument people used to get those smoking bans passed. Oh people are in the bar and blah blah blah. But they choose to go to the bar or choose to work at the bar. They could have just as easily not done these things. There is no forcing. There is a job, there is a contract associated with the job. If you want the job, you agree to the contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh nice, either join or forget the job. And they say unions don't strong arm....
    That is the terms of contract. We are adults and we can enter into any contract we wish to. If you want the job, you agree to the terms of contract. That's that. You don't have to, you can look for jobs elsewhere which may not require that same choice. Hell, there's no unions in public universities.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    yeah, but it's not really a choice as you portray it either.
    It is very much a choice made by an adult exercising their right to contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Your argument fly's out the window with 2 aspects...1. Card check - if that passes then you can not agree to it, and still be forced to vote for it. 2. When you declare "end of story" you have lost the argument.

    j-mac
    This is just deflection. End of story is end of story. It's the reality of the system and the choices available in the real world system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    And go to a Charter school or private school that doesn't require union dues.
    Exactly. People want to drama queen this up and pretend that there are no choices. But there are plenty of choices, plain and simple.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    National Poll Shows Support for Wisconsin Governor -- TAMPA, Fla., March 11, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --

    TAMPA, Fla., March 11, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- The Free Enterprise Nation (FEN) today released the results of a national poll that shows strong support for Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker among Independent voters. The poll of voters outside of Wisconsin, taken from March 3rd to March 9th, included 500 Democrat, 500 Republican and 500 Independent voters.

    FEN spokesman, Jim MacDougald stated that "This poll contradicts some of the other polls we've seen. According to our poll, 95% of Republicans agree with the Governor, and 92% of Democrats agree with the union. There is not much of a surprise there. But 66% of Independent voters agree with the Governor, and this group is what swings most elections."

    The support for the Governor's position was even stronger when the question specifically addressed his plan to require teachers to pay 5.8% of their salary toward their pension and 12.6% of their health insurance costs, with 71% of all respondents saying that measure was fair.

    When asked if it is good public policy to allow public sector workers to retire at age 55 or earlier, 61% of all voters said "no", and they were evenly divided when asked if public sector employees should be allowed to unionize with 48% against, 48% for, and 4% undecided.

    Full poll results are available at The Free Enterprise Nation - wisconsin survey

    The Free Enterprise Nation is a non-partisan member based organization representing American employees and businesses in the private sector. Its President, James MacDougald is author of the best-selling title, "UNSUSTAINABLE: How Big Government, Taxes and Debt are Wrecking America." Mr. MacDougald is a regular guest on many national news networks including CNBC, FOX News, CNN and MSNBC and was recently prominently featured in the John Stossel special, "The Battle for the Future."

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    -chuckles- First off we need to drag you kicking and screaming if necessary out of the 1980's you said it enough times, that I think everyone here at dp knows where you think the problem came from. We no longer need to hear what you think caused the problem, as you have used it in every other post.

    I can show you how we could increase revenues by about 200 billion dollars without raising our tax rate even 1% . and really think it would pass both houses can you show where we could cut spending by half of that, that would pass both houses?

    Okay chuckles, let's hear your suggestion. And while you're at in, add the trillion we are giving away to the rich each decade and you might have something that could begin to pay down our National debt.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Okay chuckles, let's hear your suggestion. And while you're at in, add the trillion we are giving away to the rich each decade and you might have something that could begin to pay down our National debt.
    There you go again, trillions to the rich? Any idea how much a trillion is and where do you get your information? The entire tax revenue from the country is 2 trillion. If you confiscated the entire wealth of the rich you would pay off the 14 trillion debt. You are amazingly naive.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    There you go again, trillions to the rich? Any idea how much a trillion is and where do you get your information? The entire tax revenue from the country is 2 trillion. If you confiscated the entire wealth of the rich you would pay off the 14 trillion debt. You are amazingly naive.
    I had a much stronger word in mind

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Okay chuckles, let's hear your suggestion. And while you're at in, add the trillion we are giving away to the rich each decade and you might have something that could begin to pay down our National debt.
    You need to read this.....

    Feed Your Family on $10 Billion a Day

    Seems like these days I hear a lot of whiney whiners whining about "out of control government spending" and "insane deficits" and such, trying to make hay out of a bunch of pointy-head boring finance hooey. Sure, $3.7 trillion of spending sounds like a big number. "Oh, boo-hoo, how are we going to get $3.7 trillion dollars? We're broke, boo-hoo-hoo," whine the whiners. What these skinflint crybabies fail to realize is that $3.7 trillion is for an entire year - which translates into only a measly $10 billion per day!

    Mister, I call that a bargain. Especially since it pays for all of us - you and me, the whole American family. Like all families, we Americas have to pay for things - health, food, safety, uncle Dave America with his drinking problem. And when little Billy America wants that new quad runner they promised, do Mom and Dad America deny him? No, they get a second job at Circle K, because they know little Billy might have one of his episodes and burn down the house.

    So let's all sit down together as an American family with a calendar and make a yearly budget. First, let's lock in the $3.7 trillion of critical family spending priorities; now let's get to work on collecting the pay-as-we-go $10 billion daily cash flow we need.

    12:01 AM, January 1
    Let's start the year out right by going after some evil corporations and their obscene profits. And who is more evil than those twin spawns of Lucifer himself, Exxon Mobil and Walmart? Together these two largest American industrial behemoths raked in, between them, $34 billion in 2010 global profits. Let's teach 'em both a lesson and confiscate it for the public good. This will get us through...

    9:52 AM January 4
    Okay, maybe I underestimated our take. But we shouldn't let Exxon and Walmart distract us from all those other corporate profiteers out there worth shaking down. In fact, why don't we grab every cent of 2010 profit made by the other 498 members of the Fortune 500? That will net us another, let's see, $357 billion! Enough to get us to...

    Read the rest....

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    There you go again, trillions to the rich? Any idea how much a trillion is and where do you get your information? The entire tax revenue from the country is 2 trillion. If you confiscated the entire wealth of the rich you would pay off the 14 trillion debt. You are amazingly naive.
    Haven't been keeping up eh? This was posted by a conservative: "Mr. Bush and his Republican allies in Congress want to permanently extend that tax cut and almost all of the others that Congress passed in his first term. The cost of doing that would be more than $1 trillion over the next decade, a cost that would hit the Treasury at the same time that the spending on old-age benefits for retiring baby boomers begins to soar."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/wa...8tax.html?_r=1

    And this from the Congressional Record :

    ""The tax bill gave a $93,000 tax cut, on average, to those earning more than $1 million a year. Most Americans, however, get less than $100."

    http://books.google.com/books?id=5ANDmIIpAmwC&pg=PA29059&lpg=PA29059&dq=Ta x+cuts+for+the+wealthiest+Americas+cost+taxpayers+ half+a+trillion+dollars&source=bl&ots=3TYncIKL9p&s ig=tpFzNBA-ZRMPZmQzrVB6kNNdSbs&hl=en&ei=A45yTZSNN4KC8gagrYHpD g&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDAQ 6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-16-11 at 05:35 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Haven't been keeping up eh? This was posted by a conservative: "Mr. Bush and his Republican allies in Congress want to permanently extend that tax cut and almost all of the others that Congress passed in his first term. The cost of doing that would be more than $1 trillion over the next decade, a cost that would hit the Treasury at the same time that the spending on old-age benefits for retiring baby boomers begins to soar."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/wa...8tax.html?_r=1

    And this from the Congressional Record :

    ""The tax bill gave a $93,000 tax cut, on average, to those earning more than $1 million a year. Most Americans, however, get less than $100."
    http://books.google.com/books?id=5ANDmIIpAmwC&pg=PA29059&lpg=PA29059&dq=Ta x+cuts+for+the+wealthiest+Americas+cost+taxpayers+ half+a+trillion+dollars&source=bl&ots=3TYncIKL9p&s ig=tpFzNBA-ZRMPZmQzrVB6kNNdSbs&hl=en&ei=A45yTZSNN4KC8gagrYHpD g&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDAQ 6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
    OVER THE NEXT DECADE!!! That is 100 billion dollars a year out of a 3.7 trillion dollar govt. and a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit AND IT IS A PROJECTION. Take it all and you now have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. You are absolutely amazingly ill informed and understand very little. Think instead of posting.
    Last edited by Conservative; 03-16-11 at 05:37 PM.

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