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Thread: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

    Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

    Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

    j-mac
    1. There are plenty of jobs that don't require unions.
    2. In theory, I believe that no one should be forced to join a union. In practice, when unions negotiate pay raises, better work conditions and more benefits among other things, those who pay union dues, who went on strike, who organized and did other things with their union to get such benefits should be the only ones to benefit since those who chose to opt out of the union didn't contribute any money or do any of the work. This is a difficult thing to enforce particularly since things like better work conditions would apply to everyone.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

    Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

    Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

    j-mac
    I believe the standard conservative answer to this point is that they can either start a business or find a job in another town. Nobody has an obligation to give them a job and all that stuff.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am going to inject a usually liberal talking point here, which surprisingly TPD has either forgotten, or chooses to ignore because it is his ox being gored.

    Some towns and cities have only one industry left in them, and the jobs that pay a standard of living that is middle class are in those industries. It is inherently UN-American, and UN-Democratic in my view to tell someone whom is qualified, and able to be hired in all other aspects of the job, that they can't have it unless they submit to union membership.

    Normally I would say for them to take their qualifications and move to another part of the country to get a job in line with what they want to make, however, in this case it is more like the bully in the park. When someone is playing nicely, not bothering anyone, then comes the bully and says that this is HIS part of the park and you have to pay him to be in it. It's BS.

    j-mac
    Obviously something the liberals don't want to acknowledge. Forced union dues is telling someone what to do with their money.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. There are plenty of jobs that don't require unions.
    Interesting. I see how it works. When you can't stick to the scenario I laid out, and have a valid argument, you just ignore it and make up your own...Not a very honest tactic, but exposed.

    Look, there may be plenty of "jobs" out there, hell if the person wanted, maybe he/she could take on three jobs at once. We all do what we must. But the union doesn't OWN that job, just as you don't OWN your job. If the unions were really into increased employment, and a fairer society, then they'd step out of the way and allow business to expand, instead of keeping their hand around the throat of business whilst they extract their ambitions of greed.

    2. In theory, I believe that no one should be forced to join a union.
    No you don't, or you wouldn't be arguing that one should either join or leave.

    In practice, when unions negotiate pay raises, better work conditions and more benefits among other things, those who pay union dues, who went on strike, who organized and did other things with their union to get such benefits should be the only ones to benefit since those who chose to opt out of the union didn't contribute any money or do any of the work. This is a difficult thing to enforce particularly since things like better work conditions would apply to everyone.
    Can you cite for us the last strike that was solely based on work conditions alone? ie; safety, hours, facilities, or cleanliness?


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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I believe the standard conservative answer to this point is that they can either start a business or find a job in another town. Nobody has an obligation to give them a job and all that stuff.
    That is exactly right, hell I did it myself. Grew up in Michigan, Lived in Maryland, and now South Carolina. However, on the other hand, who is the union to say I can't have that job if I am qualified? It's like the Mob, having to pay protection money to.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Unless someone's birthdate is before 1939, Union membership is at its lowest point in your lifetime. To blame unions for todays economic meltdown is ludicrous.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Interesting. I see how it works. When you can't stick to the scenario I laid out, and have a valid argument, you just ignore it and make up your own...Not a very honest tactic, but exposed.

    Look, there may be plenty of "jobs" out there, hell if the person wanted, maybe he/she could take on three jobs at once. We all do what we must. But the union doesn't OWN that job, just as you don't OWN your job. If the unions were really into increased employment, and a fairer society, then they'd step out of the way and allow business to expand, instead of keeping their hand around the throat of business whilst they extract their ambitions of greed.

    No you don't, or you wouldn't be arguing that one should either join or leave.

    Can you cite for us the last strike that was solely based on work conditions alone? ie; safety, hours, facilities, or cleanliness?


    j-mac
    1. I didn't ignore anything.
    2. I'm not going look for something that doesn't disprove my argument.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That is exactly right, hell I did it myself. Grew up in Michigan, Lived in Maryland, and now South Carolina. However, on the other hand, who is the union to say I can't have that job if I am qualified? It's like the Mob, having to pay protection money to.


    j-mac
    Unions don't just come in and take over. People have to want them first.

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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Unless someone's birthdate is before 1939, Union membership is at its lowest point in your lifetime. To blame unions for todays economic meltdown is ludicrous.

    I agree we have to be careful about villifying unions and blaming them for our economic meltdown. We can rightfully expect, though, that public sector union members share in some of our pain...thereby helping to ease the burden on taxpayers. Defined benefit pension plans are Rolls Royce's we just can't afford.
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    Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

    from Erod

    Boy, this story went quiet, didn't it? And not just because of an earthquake either.

    Americans don't have the time or patience for unions.
    [QUOTE]

    Actually almost all the polls tell us that Ameicans have no patience for the rash of union bashing that we see here.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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