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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
People will say they are against deficits - they are also against cutting pretty much every program except foreign aid.
The tea party isn't going to be around for very long if these are the kinds of stunts its going to pull.
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What about the stunt pulled by the democrats by running away from home?
They were given plenty of time to go back. Then they started the threats of recalls and one of them had sent for an absentee ballot for April. It was obvious they weren't coming back any time soon.

The Republicans were pretty gutsy to stand up to the Unions that way, in my opinion. Only one voted against it. We'll see how he does when he's up for re-election. If you're right, he'll win.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

DiAnna said:
However, the Wisconsin legislature has done this in such a way that it will be immediately appealed and overturned. The state will then be back to square one, minus the court and lawyer fees.

It might have made them feel really, really good, but that feeling is only going to last a really, really short time. They have to do things right, legally. Unless this is nothing more that a partisian pep rally. If so, good job.
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From what I am hearing, this has little chance of being overturned. The WI senate sought and received the legal opinions of 3 non-partisan sources - including the non-partisan individual that handles the rules in the senate (can't recall the name of the office). While I wasn't certain when I first heard this, I have come to the conclusion that the "we will challenge" and "it's illegal" is really just a lot of smoke.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
that's correct. people are generally against ending collective bargaining rights.

but people are also in favor of being a right to work state.

and overwhelmingly people favor the right to representative government (which is what the bill actually expanded).


it seems you can get the majority of Americans to support about anything so long as you slap the word "rights" onto a phrase that might not be crystal clear its' definition to most poll respondents.




as for the recall efforts.... i'm thinking for the vast majority of Wisconsin's citizens, this issue fades. the Unions will remember (expect Wisconsin to be absolutely drowning in Union money in a couple of months), but the electorate? school will go on, and i doubt they will care.


UNLESS the unions are actually stupid enough to call a general strike, as there have been some rumblings of them doing so.

if that happens, expect to see any union support plummet fast.
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I watched Big Union guy Ed Schultz last night. Poor baby was kind of down in the dumps. However, he was still trying to stir up the runaway dems by asking "what now, a strike? Can you all go on strike? Blah blah blah"
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
To your second point, yes, it is. In this way, however? Not at all. This issue is being blown to national scale. Even if the poll you showed earlier was representative of actual changing ideals rather than the meaning of the words, this is not in any way what the average american would want.
Most people remain in the moderate portion of the scale and won't like the extremist behavior currently being shown.
Regardless of what implications this bill has on finances, what do you think the average person will think when they hear that these guys stripped the bill of all "financial aspects" and passed a bill purely to end collective bargaining rights? they won't see it as being responsible, they'll see it as ending rights, even if those rights never existed in the first place.
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They'll now how the choice of whether to join the Union or not. The only ones losing rights are the union leaders right to forcibly take dues and make someone join.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
:D what, are you against freedom of speech? :D
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The Koch bro. give a few million to a party and all the Dems can do is whine. Now if George Soros kicks the bucket or starts giving to the Republicans, they might have a reason to piss and moan about it.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
I watched Big Union guy Ed Schultz last night. Poor baby was kind of down in the dumps. However, he was still trying to stir up the runaway dems by asking "what now, a strike? Can you all go on strike? Blah blah blah"
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....as disconnected from reality as Democrats have been on the national level, i just can't see them being that stupid.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

TheBook said:
It seems like a lot of people here are confused as to what collective bargaining is.

A big part of it is the ability to keep employers to stick to agreements made with employees.

It's not a process that forces employers to do whatever employees want of them, simply assures that employees are able to negotiate with their bosses, and that any agreements made stay in practice.
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In Public Unions the employers are politicians who benefit from doing favors for the Unions. It's the taxpayers who pay the bills and have no say in the matter.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
Well, I'm a pragmatist. I have no problem with policies that advance society's well-being, even if they aren't the most all-encompassing policies I can imagine. Better to pick one's battles.



Except I didn't view it through that prism, you did. You're the one who keeps referring to it bringing us back to Adam Smith's time. This line of thinking is essentially "300 years ago they didn't have Policy X, and now they do. Therefore repealing Policy X will cause society to regress 300 years." This, of course, is wholly illogical, as substituting any modern policy with which YOU disagree will quickly demonstrate.
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You are assuming that my referring to Adam Smith's time is me saying/thinking that:

........."300 years ago they didn't have Policy X, and now they do. Therefore repealing Policy X will cause society to regress 300 years."


It's also illogical to make baseless assumptions.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
In Public Unions the employers are politicians who benefit from doing favors for the Unions. It's the taxpayers who pay the bills and have no say in the matter.
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hmmm....taxpayers...aren't union members taxpayers?.....wait a minute...don't these politicians have to be elected? which means people have to vote...might these people even be taxpayers??....hmmmmmmm......kinda shoots a hole in the theory that taxpayers have no voice....
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
In Public Unions the employers are politicians who benefit from doing favors for the Unions. It's the taxpayers who pay the bills and have no say in the matter.
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Actually, the Taxpayers are the ones who employ the Politicians, and have the entirety of the say in the matter (since they elect the politicians.)
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
They'll now how the choice of whether to join the Union or not. The only ones losing rights are the union leaders right to forcibly take dues and make someone join.
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Nope. They will still (presumably) have to pay union dues, although many may elect to de-unionize. This literally has nothing to do in any way, shape or form with union leaders asking dues or forcing people to join.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
When have they "overturn representative democracy at will"?
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well, as one quick easy example, the people of the State of Wisconsin decided that they would have publicly funded education to teach their kids.

for the last three weeks, the unions have decided that no, they wouldn't.

The rights to assemble and petition is one of the fundamental right of democracy
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absolutely, and i would never say otherwise. I would say that they still dont' have the right to commit fraud by faking (or getting false) doctor notes, nor do they have the right to shut down the functions of government so that they can do so whenever they happen to like. they should have protested after work or on the weekends.

or taken actual vacation days. which amazingly they get, despite 3 months off work a year.

and this governor says, no you can't assemble as a group and bargain with us on anything other than wages.
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which puts him in line with 26 other state governments and the federal government; and i would say is still too far.

This on the heel of a supreme court that grants "personhoood" to corporations because it is made up of individuals
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treating corporations as individuals is a legal tradition over a century old. the same ruling applied to unions; and unions have jacked up spending in 2010 accordingly. i don't see many complaining about that.

(and unions aren't made up of individuals?).
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yes and the ruling specifically applied to them as well

The balance is going further and further in the favours of the likes of the Koch Brothers who have a lot of money to advance their interests.
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please. Unions spend so much more money than any other entity that it's not even funny any more.

nice to be able to have an unlimited credit card that get's charged to the US Taxpayer. but, then, that's part of what this was about breaking.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

So wait, I'm confused...

People using a tactic that is perhaps a bit unethical or questionable is okay and honorable and doing what their consitutents want...IF They're democrats.

But people usign a tactic that is perhaps a bit unethical or questionable is not okay and cowardly....IF they're republicans?

Gotta love how this works.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

TheBook said:
Nope. They will still (presumably) have to pay union dues, although many may elect to de-unionize. This literally has nothing to do in any way, shape or form with union leaders asking dues or forcing people to join.
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I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
What about the stunt pulled by the democrats by running away from home?
They were given plenty of time to go back. Then they started the threats of recalls and one of them had sent for an absentee ballot for April. It was obvious they weren't coming back any time soon.

The Republicans were pretty gutsy to stand up to the Unions that way, in my opinion. Only one voted against it. We'll see how he does when he's up for re-election. If you're right, he'll win.
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That's actually part of it. What issue before have the democrats displayed any balls in?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Barbbtx said:
I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.
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You are correct. Union dues will no longer be collected automatically from people's paychecks. They will have to write the check themselves. The healthcare insurance provision itself will save the state millions. Facts and Talking Points for the Wisconsin Budget Showdown | Newt.org
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
That's actually part of it. What issue before have the democrats displayed any balls in?
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passing Obamacare. i gotta admit, they took more flak for that than anything i have seen other than the flak bush took over the war, and they managed to get it through anyway over public objection.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
when it is blown to a national scale inevitably it is done so by the union opposition. Everybody has heard about Chris Christie taking on the unions; the union's response to him made him a national figure. where the matter simply goes up for debate, everyone has their say, arguments are flung around, and then a deal get's hammered out, nobody hears about it.



:shrug: i would of course disagree :) what if you were to simply send out a poll asking if it would be okay to increase teacher compensation in line with inflation, with the voters being asked their permission before they are put on the hook for above and beyond that? if you were to simply ask Americans if workers should be forced to join unions and pay dues in order to teach? that's the substance of what this "collective bargaining rights limitation" is about.



Wisconsin just became like 26 other states that limit collective bargaining. Wisconsins' employees retain broader ability to collectively bargain than federal employees. that's hardly extremist.
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Perception=/= reality
They could have done this with a lot less cahoodles, quietly and most people would probably agree with them.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
passing Obamacare. i gotta admit, they took more flak for that than anything i have seen other than the flak bush took over the war, and they managed to get it through anyway over public objection.
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That's another one of those perception things. People are against Obamacare, but for pretty much every part of it (bar the mandate).
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

MaggieD said:
You are correct. Union dues will no longer be collected automatically from people's paychecks. They will have to write the check themselves. The healthcare insurance provision itself will save the state millions. Facts and Talking Points for the Wisconsin Budget Showdown | Newt.org
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newt.org? the guy who now says his paasion for his country madfe him have an affair? correct or not, i am surprised you would read anything this man puts out.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
Perception=/= reality
They could have done this with a lot less cahoodles, quietly and most people would probably agree with them.
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they triedt hat. it wasthe unions and their Democrat Lackeys in the senate that made this a national Big Issue, first by fleeing the state and then by holding massive protest rallies.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

liblady said:
newt.org? the guy who now says his paasion for his country madfe him have an affair? correct or not, i am surprised you would read anything this man puts out.
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Collective bargaining to only be allowed for base pay.
Union dues not to be collected by the state.
Annual Secret ballots to keep unions certified.
UNION DUES TO BECOME VOLUNTARY
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Walker releases details of his budget repair bill
The state’s civil service system, among the strongest in the country, would remain in place. State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures. Local police, fire and state patrol would be exempted from the changes. Other reforms will include state and local governments not collecting union dues, annual certification will be required in a secret ballot, and any employee can opt out of paying union dues.
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.



I have heard the Wisconsin Republicans and others use this as a way of defending the measures that they are taking. But if the union members lose salary or other benefits greater than this $500-$1000, how does this benefit the union members?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Lionel Hutz said:
I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.



I have heard the Wisconsin Republicans and others use this as a way of defending the measures that they are taking. But if the union members lose salary or other benefits greater than this $500-$1000, how does this benefit the union members?
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If the state of Wisconsin cannot afford the Union forced wages and benefits and defaults everyone loses.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Lionel Hutz said:
I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.



I have heard the Wisconsin Republicans and others use this as a way of defending the measures that they are taking. But if the union members lose salary or other benefits greater than this $500-$1000, how does this benefit the union members?
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1,500 of them get to keep their jobs.
 
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