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Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

What news? The news that has sided with the unions at every turn? No bias there.:roll:

hey.....here is scott walker in his own words....

I had my whole cabinet over to the residence for dinner, talked about what we were gonna do, how we were gonna do it. It was kind of the last hurrah before we dropped the bomb and I stood up and I pulled out a picture of Ronald Reagan and I said “You know, this may seem a bit melodramatic but 30 years ago, Ronald Reagan… had one of the most defining moments of his political career, not just his Presidency, when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers.” And I said “To me, that moment was more important, not just for labor relations or the federal budget, that was the first crack in the Berlin Wall and the fall of Communism because from that point forward the Soviets and the Communists knew that Ronald Reagan wasn’t a pushover.
 


Ah, I see...Nothing new....except exposing yet another dishonest player in this debate. Look, your article talks about how a couple of unions offered Walker concessions on in return for leaving CB out of it. Walker rejected that as he should....I knew you weren't being honest when you said Walker talked about it.....lol....Try again.

j-mac
 
hey.....here is scott walker in his own words....

I had my whole cabinet over to the residence for dinner, talked about what we were gonna do, how we were gonna do it. It was kind of the last hurrah before we dropped the bomb and I stood up and I pulled out a picture of Ronald Reagan and I said “You know, this may seem a bit melodramatic but 30 years ago, Ronald Reagan… had one of the most defining moments of his political career, not just his Presidency, when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers.” And I said “To me, that moment was more important, not just for labor relations or the federal budget, that was the first crack in the Berlin Wall and the fall of Communism because from that point forward the Soviets and the Communists knew that Ronald Reagan wasn’t a pushover.


Damned straight....Good for him...Principles matter, not lies and distortions coming out of liberals today.


j-mac
 
Please quote me where I stated "soley".... strawman not needed. You pointed out a test in chicago, and you apply it to the nation. I don't think that fits.




One way we can do this, (your non-sequitor aside), would be to base teachers pay and jobs on thier performance, not how many years they put in. :prof

I mentioned the Chicago test because it's something more obvious to me since I know someone who deals with it. But if have been paying attention to debates about education, you would know that their are problems across the country with how students are being taught and tested...which is why education is a hot topic.

Therefore, if the policies of education aren't working in many schools, it doesn't make sense to base teacher's pay or job on the work of students who are taking ineffective tests and it doesn't make sense to evaluate them on how they implement ineffective policies that they are required to work under.

For your further education, here's a bestselling book by Diane Ravitch, she was appointed to public office by George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/books/review/Wolfe-t.html
 
Ah, I see...Nothing new....except exposing yet another dishonest player in this debate. Look, your article talks about how a couple of unions offered Walker concessions on in return for leaving CB out of it. Walker rejected that as he should....I knew you weren't being honest when you said Walker talked about it.....lol....Try again.

j-mac

That's exactly what I said...This debate is beyond me at this point. I know not to debate with you in the future.
 
I mentioned the Chicago test because it's something more obvious to me since I know someone who deals with it. But if have been paying attention to debates about education, you would know that their are problems across the country with how students are being taught and tested...which is why education is a hot topic.

Therefore, if the policies of education aren't working in many schools, it doesn't make sense to base teacher's pay or job on the work of students who are taking ineffective tests and it doesn't make sense to evaluate them on how they implement ineffective policies that they are required to work under.

For your further education, here's a bestselling book by Diane Ravitch, she was appointed to public office by George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/books/review/Wolfe-t.html




Do I think that these tests can be improved? sure. Do I think that should be an excuse not to fire a deadbeat teacher because of tenure, while an up and coming teacher gets fired because of last in first out? no way.


See you built up this either or argument that has little to do with reality of the situation, just look at some of the links some of us have provided. 200k for litigation, 700 teachers to be paid to do nothing?


Standardized tests have nothing to do with these glaring problems with teacher unions.
 
it doesn't make sense to base teacher's pay or job on the work of students who are taking ineffective tests and it doesn't make sense to evaluate them on how they implement ineffective policies that they are required to work under.


OMFreakinG! Is there anything teachers are responsible for in the field of education? Poor babies....Don't evaluate them on job performance, because it isn't fair with the policies, don't evaluate them on the drop out rate, or the failing levels of education shown in students scores, because that just isn't fair....I mean why should they even have to show up?


j-mac
 
Ah, I see...Nothing new....except exposing yet another dishonest player in this debate. Look, your article talks about how a couple of unions offered Walker concessions on in return for leaving CB out of it. Walker rejected that as he should....I knew you weren't being honest when you said Walker talked about it.....lol....Try again.

j-mac

I tuned out of this whole Wisconsin debacle after the first few days. People are acting like it is some big 'gotcha' moment when Gov Walker announced his intent to seriously reduce the number of collective bargaining agencies on the state rosters. Umm...dur...thats pretty much what he said from the get go. It also became obvious right away when the unions so willingly threw the teachers under the bus by accepting the requirements for increase in their contributions to their health care and retirement that all the unions cared about was increasing the size of their union numbers. Unions care about unions...not their people. People are a bargaining chip.
 
Don't shoot the messenger, Lib. Your cause is yesterday's news, and my contribution to your thread of fantasy is not only pertinent, but far more measured and respectful than you thugs deserve.

A little dose of reality to put a smile on your smug mug.

Surely you can make your point without attempting to pick a fight with people, can't you?
 


Assembly
Mary Bell, the president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the state's largest teachers union, said her group also would make the financial concessions to keep its bargaining rights.
"This is not about money," Bell said in a phone conference. "We understand the need to sacrifice."
Walker flatly rejected the offer. He said local governments and schools will need that flexibility with their employees to cope with cuts in their state aid that he wants to make to help balance the state budget.
"It doesn't work," Walker said of the offer in an interview. "My goal all along has been to give all these folks - I asked for it in the past - the tools to control their own budgets . . .  I know as a (former) local official, collective bargaining time and time again was the thing that stood in the way of local governments and school districts being able to manage their budgets."Walker pointed out that in December the state unions sought - unsuccessfully - to have Democrats then controlling the Legislature pass labor contracts that would have run through June. The no-pay-raise contracts would have included modest benefits concessions but would have also blocked for several months Walker's ability to reach the deeper cuts in benefits that he is seeking."Let's not kid ourselves. The reality is, it's about the money," Walker said

.........................................
 
I tuned out of this whole Wisconsin debacle after the first few days. People are acting like it is some big 'gotcha' moment when Gov Walker announced his intent to seriously reduce the number of collective bargaining agencies on the state rosters. Umm...dur...thats pretty much what he said from the get go. It also became obvious right away when the unions so willingly threw the teachers under the bus by accepting the requirements for increase in their contributions to their health care and retirement that all the unions cared about was increasing the size of their union numbers. Unions care about unions...not their people. People are a bargaining chip.


Yeah, that's right....I wish I could find the youtube on that Union boss that was talking to union members about education, saying that 'it wasn't about the kids....' Classic.


j-mac
 
OMFreakinG! Is there anything teachers are responsible for in the field of education? Poor babies....Don't evaluate them on job performance, because it isn't fair with the policies, don't evaluate them on the drop out rate, or the failing levels of education shown in students scores, because that just isn't fair....I mean why should they even have to show up?


j-mac

so, you believe an inner city school teacher in say, detroit, should be evaluated using the same statistics as a teacher in grosse point?
 
so, you believe an inner city school teacher in say, detroit, should be evaluated using the same statistics as a teacher in grosse point?

Better than comparing Grosse Point with Hamtramck. Damn, I just had to get the Pollock joke in there. But I'd better watch out. If Hamtramck compares too well with Grosse Point, someone might put a hit out on me. :mrgreen:
 
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so, you believe an inner city school teacher in say, detroit, should be evaluated using the same statistics as a teacher in grosse point?


I know this. Education in this country has suffered greatly from the point which I graduated, to now, and the kids show it. We have a lost generation due to exactly this type of childish non responsibility born from educrats that refuse to see themselves as any part of the problem.


j-mac
 
Surely you can make your point without attempting to pick a fight with people, can't you?

in fact, no, he can't. why else would his nic be a serial killer who died in a psychatric ward?
 
in fact, no, he can't. why else would his nic be a serial killer who died in a psychatric ward?

Better than the Boston Strangler nickname, you know. Hey...wait a second...didnt we have one of those too??? Whatever happened to Albert...
 
Better than the Boston Strangler nickname, you know. Hey...wait a second...didnt we have one of those too??? Whatever happened to Albert...

he died in prison?
 
hey.....here is scott walker in his own words....

I had my whole cabinet over to the residence for dinner, talked about what we were gonna do, how we were gonna do it. It was kind of the last hurrah before we dropped the bomb and I stood up and I pulled out a picture of Ronald Reagan and I said “You know, this may seem a bit melodramatic but 30 years ago, Ronald Reagan… had one of the most defining moments of his political career, not just his Presidency, when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers.” And I said “To me, that moment was more important, not just for labor relations or the federal budget, that was the first crack in the Berlin Wall and the fall of Communism because from that point forward the Soviets and the Communists knew that Ronald Reagan wasn’t a pushover.

I see nothing wrong with what he said. Is this supposed to be some big expose'? And, FGS!!!! Where's the link??

That's exactly what I said...This debate is beyond me at this point. I know not to debate with you in the future.

Thanks for the posting the link. However, most people debating this topic have known right along that two of the unions gave lip servce to agreeing to the increased contributions. But sans a contract, that lip service means nothing.

And, in fact, the mayor of Madison, WI rushed through a the contracts of twelve unions that did not include those contributions while the Democrats fled the state. He called an emergency city council meeting to get it done. Madison mayor defends move to sign union contracts - JSOnline
 
"....going after..."

The only ones who think the governor is "going after" anyone are those people who either belong to unions or are receiving public pensions...and that's all-told less than 12% of workers in the USA.

As to your "....leave it at that....," I agree. So where are the Democrats? Oh, wait, they're busy in Grayslake, Illinois subverting democracy.

You asked me before (yesterday, in fact) and I told you yes, I am a state employee, but I am not yet eligible for retire...not even close. So, all the concerns over retirement pensions don't affect me nearly as much as it does someone who is tenured and a year or two from retiring. I still have nearly 12 yrs left before retirement and atleast 2 yrs before I reach tenure status. But the landscape for public employee retirement plans were changing in my state a few years ago. As such, the only retirement plan I pay into is my 401(k) same as most other state employees who were hired about the same timeframe as myself (or private sector employee for that matter).

I also informed you I don't belong to any union or state employee association of any kind (although I have been courted by my peers on numerous occasions). I've merely declined (mostly for economic reasons of my own), but I respect the right of those who are members to voice their concerns via unions/employee associations representation. My concern over the situation in Wis., OH, MI and IN is that these states seem to be hell bent on taking away the negotiating rights of state employees, thereby either limiting or effectively silencing their voice as a collective group at the state legislative level. In my view, that's the equivalent of usurping one's right to freedom of speech which is a right I'd think most Conservatives would viamently defend if they truly support the Constitutional rights of all citizens in this country.

On the other hand, I'm also see that the window of communications between public employees and their state representatives isn't completely closed. One can still write, call, email or schedule a visit to contact their state representatives to have their grievences heard. Howoever, it would take a massive letter writing/email/robo-call campaign before such grievences are heard by public workers "collectively". It's still possible in those states where union representation has not been completely silenced, but for those who no longer have a voice where do they turn now to have their unified voices heard?

As I've stated to Rev and others on the matter, I believe that GOP governors as using public worker's unions, salaries, health care benefits and pensions as easy targets to exploit when instead they should be looking at those real issues that got their fiscal houses in such disarray in the first place, i.e., pay raises for politicians where state employee raises and new hiring have been frozen (is it right for state legislators to vote themselves pay raises knowing full well their state budgets are running deficits?), improving their own benefit packages while cutting everyone elses, continuing to finance building projects using municiple bonds when you haven't paid off the previous bond loan, basing state budgets on future projections instead of 5-yr averages to include paying for those things that are mandated to fund by law? How can cuts in teacher salaries and benefits be justified when states have not addressed their real deficit problems? And what I've outlined are just the tip of the ice burg! We haven't even gotten to some of the waste that takes places or stupid decisions that are made that don't produce revenue, i.e., allowing a business to form in a state but NOT have to pay taxes for 10-15-20+ yrs? I understand the need to attrack business/jobs to a state, but good Lord!! Yet it happens all the time and yet the first people who are immediately affected by spending cuts and downsizing are public servants. It would seem WE pay the price for the mistakes of the legislature!
 
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I'm talking about the unions, you are talking about the Good Reverend, Cleary, "I" am the problem here, who "adds nothing to the debate at hand". :ssst:

Wasn't talkin to ya actually Rev. I don't agree with almost anything you say, but at least respect the way you present your information. My complaint was with Ed, with whom I've noticed a habit of spewing partisan BS instead of anything that pertains to the conversation at hand.
 
Unions are fine, but teachers are employee's of the business of the gov't, Just like walmart can choose to not allow unions the gov't can do the same. If you don't like it work somewhere else or get another job. simple
 
Unions are fine, but teachers are employee's of the business of the gov't, Just like walmart can choose to not allow unions the gov't can do the same. If you don't like it work somewhere else or get another job. simple

or you could do what Americans have always done...and fight for what you want...
 
Wasn't talkin to ya actually Rev. I don't agree with almost anything you say, but at least respect the way you present your information. My complaint was with Ed, with whom I've noticed a habit of spewing partisan BS instead of anything that pertains to the conversation at hand.




I was a little bit shocked at the retort. We cool. :thumbs:
 
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