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Thread: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Towns pay into the state, reduce that burden by the same percentage.
    But the city workers are employeed by the city, not the state. Big difference.


    I am also for the regionalization of schools and police and fire forces... We don't need 50+ chiefs in my county making 100k+ a year.... (some well over 300)
    Don't know how that would work in most areas that don't share municipalities. Kansas City, KS/MO or St. Louis, MO/E. St. Louis, IL are examples of how such an idea could work, but you'd have to get both states involved to agree to share the responsiblities. Seeing that each state is very reluctant to give up its soveignty, I don't see this happening across state-lines. Moreover, cities and counties can also be very protective of their slice of the revenue pie. Novel concept, but I doubt it will work unless both sides see the mutual benefits.

    I own a company, if i can't afford to pay my employees, either I cut thier pay, or I lay them off... Why should states be allowed to run at such deficits?


    We simply can not afford it.
    True, but you're wrongly equating private business practises to state government policies and laws, not to mention market factors that DON'T necessary affect state budgets in much the same way. Don't know what kind of business you operate, but I'm willing to bet yours is affected by the laws of supply and demand and changes in the marketplace. State governments aren't affected in that same way though they do feel the impact across the board if not enough revenue is generated mostly via their tax policies, i.e., sales, use and property taxes. Your business is likely most effected by consumer demand which is a far more simplier manipulator to compensate for. Not enough customers? Promote special discount sales, improve a product line or add something new even on a temporary basis (i.e., seasonal sales), or do more direct mail marketings...whatever it takes to increase and/or focus your customer base. States don't necessarily have that luxury, and even if they do they don't rely on "impulse buying" to general sales nor discounts. That (discounting via lower corporate tax rates) may work for inticing a business to a particular state, but it has little effect on people settling in a state. What DOES lure people to settle to a state are it's property and sales tax rates, crime, cleaniness, school systems and leisure/recreational activities not to mention the overall cost of living. These such things are often grossly affected when states start excising their public servants.

    Wait, everyone should be cut but union workers because they can bargain? I misread this, no?
    You misread me here. I am saying that it's not always the fault of public servants that their state's budgets are in disarray, yet they're always the first to feel the pinch. Why when it wasn't their salaries, their pensions, their employee benefits that caused the problems most states are facing in the first place? Public servants, just like regular employees in the private sector, are always the first to get hit when financial problems arise. However, in the private sector it's understandble why "last hired, first fired" is a mainstay...once you're done everything the business can do to reduce costs, i.e., energy saving strategies, cost-savings techniques like changing outdated equipment, switching vendors or reworking or dropping certain contracts altogether when practical, changing benefit plans, freezing new hires and a host of other things, once a business has taken the necessary steps in these such areas and are still having financial problems, then and only then should the layoff occur. And I suspect most businesses do go through these and many other such steps first. State government doesn't quite have these such luxuries to make such adjustments in their financies. But what they do have is the benefit of their financial history, just as most businesses do, inwhich to pull figures from year's past. I'm not saying formulating a state's budget is that easy, but if a state is projecting their financial forecasts on projections and not on how their budgets were on average in reviewing past budgets, for example, then they're very liable to place their financial house in disarray.


    Merit... base it on merit, if the unions were for merit (I think they are in NJ which is why christie is not trying to bust the unions, and I agree here), then I would have more sympathy. But given what they are paid, the amount of time off, to me it seems they want more and more for less and less, in a time when we simply can not afford it.
    I don't think unions are asking for more for their membership right now. If you can provide any evidence to the contrary, I'd ask that you provide it. Still, I agree with you that merit pay is far better than basing public worker pay on seniority (tenure).
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 03-07-11 at 02:25 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I thought on a board about politics, you would know that action meant participating in the political system through exerting the influence I am able to have a citizen (i.e. through voting, money and finding ways of getting people to evaluate this issue for more perspectives than a convenient one). And trust me buddy, as someone who raised by hardworking parents and who survived the endurance test that is college (particularly a college where students, not me, regularly have breakdowns because of the pressure), 'not working' is not an option, even if that's the idea you have of those who support the hardworking members of unions.

    Meh, college was easy for me....
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Moderator's Warning:
    Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union StandoffAll the chiefs, sports, buddies, and thugs in this thread need to go and everyone needs to tone it down and cease the baiting and flaming or else this guy is going to start handing out points. Got it friends?

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But the city workers are employeed by the city, not the state. Big difference.

    City gets state money..... A lot of it.





    Don't know how that would work in most areas that don't share municipalities. Kansas City, KS/MO or St. Louis, MO/E. St. Louis, IL are examples of how such an idea could work, but you'd have to get both states involved to agree to share the responsiblities. Seeing that each state is very reluctant to give up its soveignty, I don't see this happening across state-lines. Moreover, cities and counties can also be very protective of their slice of the revenue pie. Novel concept, but I doubt it will work unless both sides see the mutual benefits.
    I meant intra-state, not interstate. And they are VERY reluctant.... I completley agree with that notion....

    There is a push for regionalization here in jersey... I am all for it.


    True, but you're wrongly equating private business practises to state government policies and laws, not to mention market factors that DON'T necessary affect state budgets in much the same way. Don't know what kind of business you operate, but I'm willing to bet yours is affected by the laws of supply and demand and changes in the marketplace. State governments aren't affected in that same way though they do feel the impact across the board if not enough revenue is generated mostly via their tax policies, i.e., sales, use and property taxes. Your business is likely most effected by consumer demand which is a far more simplier manipulator to compensate for. Not enough customers? Promote special discount sales, improve a product line or add something new even on a temporary basis (i.e., seasonal sales), or do more direct mail marketings...whatever it takes to increase and/or focus your customer base. States don't necessarily have that luxury, and even if they do they don't rely on "impulse buying" to general sales nor discounts. That (discounting via lower corporate tax rates) may work for inticing a business to a particular state, but it has little effect on people settling in a state.

    I don't disagree with thier being differences, however, we have reached a point where we can no longer afford these things and we need to make cuts across the board, this includes civil workers.


    You misread me here. I am saying that it's not always the fault of public servants that their state's budgets are in disarray, yet they're always the first to feel the pinch. Why when it wasn't their salaries, their pensions, their employee benefits that caused the problems most states are facing in the first place? Public servants, just like regular employees in the private sector, are always the first to get hit when financial problems arise. However, in the private sector it's understandble why "last hired, first fired" is a mainstay...once you're done everything the business can do to reduce costs, i.e., energy saving strategies, cost-savings techniques like changing outdated equipment, switching vendors or reworking or dropping certain contracts altogether when practical, changing benefit plans, freezing new hires and a host of other things, once a business has taken the necessary steps in these such areas and are still having financial problems, then and only then should the layoff occur. And I suspect most businesses do go through these and many other such steps first. State government doesn't quite have these such luxuries to make such adjustments in their financies. But what they do have is the benefit of their financial history, just as most businesses do, inwhich to pull figures from year's past. I'm not saying formulating a state's budget is that easy, but if a state is projecting their financial forecasts on projections and not on how their budgets were on average in reviewing past budgets, for example, then they're very liable to place their financial house in disarray.

    Isn't this what's happening already? I mean lets look at WI, what else can be done first?




    I don't think unions are asking for more for their membership right now. If you can provide any evidence to the contrary, I'd ask that you provide it. Still, I agree with you that merit pay is far better than basing public worker pay on seniority (tenure).

    I don;t think you understood what I was saying. The start of this was over a what 5.8 percent input into thier own pensions? no?

    We agree on the merit.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Careful, dear. This is "state" politics, not federal.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    They should cut civil workers (police, fire, teachers, dpw, etc) across the board. We are in a budget suck. cuts have to be made.
    why should teachers and firemen have to have their salaries cut while the wealthy enjoy tax breaks? why should thew middle class have to bear the entire brunt of the economy? because that's exactly what's happening.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Careful, dear. This is "state" politics, not federal.



    they can put a table on the border, one group in one state, one in another.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How is evaluating teachers on the performance of somebody else evaluating teachers?

    And what makes you think those standardized tests are any sort of accurate measurement of what is taught in that classroom, school, or school district?

    If you want that, you must insist on a national curriculum where the mandated curriculum is perfectly dovetailed into the tests. Japan does that and is very successful at it. Other than that, each district would have to both develop its own curriculum and its own perfectly dovetailed tests to accurately measure student learning.

    Do that and then come back and we can talk about accurate measurement of classroom learning.
    No we'll talk about it now. Tell me what criteria should be used to evaluate teachers.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Rev,

    A city receiving state funds does not necessarily mean they're using those funds to pay salaries and benefits. They could be using it to upgrade equipment, i.e., a police department might need to buy a few new patrol cars that they couldn't otherwise pay for using city revenue. A fire department might need to replace some hose couplings or buy a new fire truck. Who knows...

    The point is, not all state dollars are used to pay city worker salaries, etc. If they are, then yes, absolutely cut workers if you must. But to suggest it's that way in most states is posturing for a larger agenda. That may be what's happening in your neighborhood, but it's not what's happening in mine.

    As for the steps Wisconsin has taken to date to reduce its financial woes, I really don't know what they did beforehand. All I know is what's being reported in the national media, towit, their Governor has never given a reason that justifies going after unions and public workers. I'd like to think he took all the right steps in this matter, but based on that bogus phone call he got caught up in...let's just say he'll have to answer to his constituences and leave it at that.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    they can put a table on the border, one group in one state, one in another.
    ...then call it "inter-state commerce".

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