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Thread: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    They should cut civil workers (police, fire, teachers, dpw, etc) across the board. We are in a budget suck. cuts have to be made.
    I notice you make no mention of cutting military personnel. Why are they exempt?
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Two things I find wrong with this view:

    1) Not every public servant in every municipality are financed at the state level. Most are "city" or "county" employees. So, that tactic won't fly in some, if not most, states.
    Towns pay into the state, reduce that burden by the same percentage.


    I am also for the regionalization of schools and police and fire forces... We don't need 50+ chiefs in my county making 100k+ a year.... (some well over 300)


    2) Why is it people that are the hardest hit when budget cuts become so "necessary"? The answer, of course, is simple: Once you take away a job or significantly reduce the salary that was once affixed to the position, bueracrats never have to rehire or reinstate that level of pay. In short, reduce your workforce from 100 down to 75, you have have to rehire those 25 former employees again. Same goes if you reduce salaries and benefits across the board. Take it away now and odds are they never return back to the levels they once were.

    I own a company, if i can't afford to pay my employees, either I cut thier pay, or I lay them off... Why should states be allowed to run at such deficits?


    We simply can not afford it.

    Now, here's what I see as large problems where all this union busting, force reductions (especially with teachers) and salary/benefit cuts.

    a. Unions have always been a big part of fairness in the workforce. When requests become unreasonable, it's only fair that business owners or state Governors/politicians push back. But is if fair to take away the employee's right to seek fairness using the one collective voice they have to represent them at the bargaining table? In effect, that's what appears to be happening with states across the country. But haven't we always been a country that prides itself on giving voice to the people...free speech and all? And what about this noble idea of empowering people to do better for themselves, to stand up for what they believe in? Clearly, Wisconsin and other states across the country are having budgetary problems, but if all they need are short-term fixes to their fiscal problems, cutting teacher pay and benefits really isn't the answer in the long-term. Yes, states get the needed financial breathing room in the short-term, but it's just a bandaid.

    Wait, everyone should be cut but union workers because they can bargain? I misread this, no?



    b. The issues with their monitary policies will still remain. The trade-off here is you gain short-term capital, but you lose in turning out a well educated society (not to mention civil unrest, ineffective public services or none at all, etc., etc.) States that once depended on tourism, for example, will start to see declines in tourism revenue and they'll start wondering why? Well, when your roads, bridges and highways, state parks and other forms of infrastruture are in decay, state officials will look back on these days and wonder, "What have we done?" It's happened before and it will happen again. Problem is by the time the error is realized, it's usually much to late to turn back the clock.

    Merit... base it on merit, if the unions were for merit (I think they are in NJ which is why christie is not trying to bust the unions, and I agree here), then I would have more sympathy. But given what they are paid, the amount of time off, to me it seems they want more and more for less and less, in a time when we simply can not afford it.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It's not anecdotal.

    An entire school system in one of the largest cities in the country is giving tests to students with spelling and grammar errors, evaluating students based on those ridiculous tests and evaluating teachers based on their performance. Not to mention in many of these schools (usually the poor areas), students are given standardized tests (national, state or district) 100 days out of the year.

    That's not an anecdote. That's a widespread reality. Do you want your children being tested instead of taught that many days out of the year? Do you want your children being taught in classrooms with 40 other students? Do you want teachers fired because of a system that let's principals fire based on political bull****?

    This is the stuff unions and teachers are fighting against. Instead of believing what some corporate sponsored report on television tells you or some Republican governor wants you to believe, maybe you should try to find out why teachers are fighting this sort of rhetoric so hard for.

    Maybe you should pay attention to the people who spend thousands of dollars on their own money on school supplies for poor kids who parents can't afford it, who want their students to be able to learn in smaller classrooms where they can get more attention, etc.

    In order to get tenure, you have to go through an evaluation process. After getting it, you have the right to due process before being fired. Maybe we should reform the initial evaluation process and the due process system to make firing drunk teachers easier, but the rest of this Republican fed B.S. is just that B.S..
    So teachers shouldn't be evaluated on student performance. What should they be evaluated on?
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I notice you make no mention of cutting military personnel. Why are they exempt?

    Because the military folk are paid like ****. Well under thier civilian or civil equivelants pay.... plus the military has no collective bargaining rights so I don't see the correlation here.

    That said, I am not for increasing pay in the military, poor pay has a purpose in the military, but that's a whole nother thread.


    I am for scrapping some military programs, lowering what we spend on the military, etc.... So, I think you pretty much failed here chief.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    as soon as you cackled on about simple minded folks "like me" and your family member, you went "anecdotal"....


    "simple minded" people like me, have enough money to live in areas where teachers are kept based on merit, or have the ability to send my son to a private school, etc...

    simple minded folk like me, see that when you keep teachers based on senority, you keep the bad apples with the good...


    Parents at Brooklyn's PS 65 say last in first out rule for teachers is a failure - NYPOST.com



    simply minded folk like me, think union crap like this is a tragedy....







    Sounds like a local problem, not a union problem. What's the union doing to fix it other than making sure tenure is kept.






    you want teachers to stay based on senority. You are not the solution to any problem.





    Maybe if folks put money back into thier own pensions, then perhaps they can afford more of these things.






    You do know I am not a republican, right?


    I am a small business owner who has to deal with unions not liking how I run my shop. So lets not go on and on about how altruistic the unions in general are. I see how many operate, and many teachers unions are no different.
    You're missing the point. But it does make sense that you live in a wealthy or at least a wealthy enough area. My parents were able to send me to private schools as well. And to be sure, simple-minded people come in all classes, backgrounds, races, genders and nationalities. I know a lot of rich, academic people who can't see past the convenient story put in front of them. You don't have to see yourself in the image I've painted of you, but you can't help how I see you based on what you've written.

    In any case, the good thing about private schools or about public schools in middle class to wealthy neighborhoods is that parents speak up for their children to make sure that they and their teachers have good conditions and are working based on effective policies. In those places, maybe teachers don't need unions because the parents will stick up for them.

    But in poorer areas, where parents (in general) are much less attentive, teachers and students need something else. Parents won't protest 100 days of testing or the use of crappy books schools the Board of Ed. got from a corporate friend who needs a favor. Parents aren't going to demand that their children have after school activities, etc.

    Teachers can do this to a limited extent by demanding that they get to work in certain conditions that would also benefit students and unions are the ones who help them get those conditions. So you and I can go live in our fantastic private school lives and I can be grateful that my mother never let me go to a school as bad the kids a neighborhood over, but projecting our experiences onto those of poorer people and mocking unions because parts of them are bad doesn't help the problem.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    you are right, the reason for the "fuss" is that the dems left teh state, giving the unions ample time to protest cuts, that the state has to make.


    BTW are the teachers back teaching?
    From my understanding they went back to teaching after the first week of protests.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You're missing the point. But it does make sense that you live in a wealthy or at least a wealthy enough area. My parents were able to send me to private schools as well. And to be sure, simple-minded people come in all classes, backgrounds, races, genders and nationalities. I know a lot of rich, academic people who can't see past the convenient story put in front of them. You don't have to see yourself in the image I've painted of you, but you can't help how I see you based on what you've written.

    In any case, the good thing about private schools or about public schools in middle class to wealthy neighborhoods is that parents speak up for their children to make sure that they and their teachers have good conditions and are working based on effective policies. In those places, maybe teachers don't need unions because the parents will stick up for them.

    But in poorer areas, where parents (in general) are much less attentive, teachers and students need something else. Parents won't protest 100 days of testing or the use of crappy books schools the Board of Ed. got from a corporate friend who needs a favor. Parents aren't going to demand that their children have after school activities, etc.

    Teachers can do this to a limited extent by demanding that they get to work in certain conditions that would also benefit students and unions are the ones who help them get those conditions. So you and I can go live in our fantastic private school lives and I can be grateful that my mother never let me go to a school as bad the kids a neighborhood over, but projecting our experiences onto those of poorer people and mocking unions because parts of them are bad doesn't help the problem.
    This is becoming a pattern, Rev.....missing the point.
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    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Because the military folk are paid like ****. Well under thier civilian or civil equivelants pay.... plus the military has no collective bargaining rights so I don't see the correlation here.

    That said, I am not for increasing pay in the military, poor pay has a purpose in the military, but that's a whole nother thread.


    I am for scrapping some military programs, lowering what we spend on the military, etc.... So, I think you pretty much failed here chief.
    I guess 'defensive' is your default reaction, Sport. A question is just a question. It's relevant because you said 'they should cut civil workers across the board', not 'they should cut unionised civil workers across the board'. You need to learn to say what you mean, Bub.

    I have no idea whether US military is well-paid or poorly paid. On first glance, the British forces are paid poorly in comparison with civilian public employees, but when you take into account all the services and facilities that are provided for them, the comparison is much more balanced.
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You're missing the point. But it does make sense that you live in a wealthy or at least a wealthy enough area. My parents were able to send me to private schools as well. And to be sure, simple-minded people come in all classes, backgrounds, races, genders and nationalities. I know a lot of rich, academic people who can't see past the convenient story put in front of them. You don't have to see yourself in the image I've painted of you, but you can't help how I see you based on what you've written.

    I am a product of the NYC, NEWARK, NJ school system..... I am also hold a degree from the University of New Mexico. I did not grow up rich, I became rich.

    I attribute it to how simple minded I must be.



    In any case, the good thing about private schools or about public schools in middle class to wealthy neighborhoods is that parents speak up for their children to make sure that they and their teachers have good conditions and are working based on effective policies. In those places, maybe teachers don't need unions because the parents will stick up for them.
    So it's not the unions fault, it's the not simple minded poor folks fault....


    Actually, I agree that the parents are part of the problem, so are the unions that don't base thier employment on merit.



    But in poorer areas, where parents (in general) are much less attentive, teachers and students need something else. Parents won't protest 100 days of testing or the use of crappy books schools the Board of Ed. got from a corporate friend who needs a favor. Parents aren't going to demand that their children have after school activities, etc.
    So that means the teachers can then not care and slack off, all while protesting for getting more for doing less....


    Teachers can do this to a limited extent by demanding that they get to work in certain conditions that would also benefit students and unions are the ones who help them get those conditions. So you and I can go live in our fantastic private school lives and I can be grateful that my mother never let me go to a school as bad the kids a neighborhood over, but projecting our experiences onto those of poorer people and mocking unions because parts of them are bad doesn't help the problem.

    You see now where you went wrong with this comparison, no?
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    Re: Wisconsin's Democrats to End Union Standoff

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So teachers shouldn't be evaluated on student performance. What should they be evaluated on?
    1. Teachers should based on both student performance and seniority.
    2. I think teachers should get tenure after 5-7 years after an evaluation process where the grades, scores and improvement of their students is evaluated.
    3. Teachers should continue to be evaluated every year and if their performance falls they should have to go through a process of getting fired (in order to avoid firing teachers than can be improved or that are being targeted for personal/political reasons) - this process needs to be more efficient like everything else in this country.
    4. If we're going to evaluate on performance, we need to make sure that students are given a fair shot at actually performing well (i.e. no spelling and grammar mistakes, no testing for 100 days).

    From my perspective, all of these arguments are ridiculous. Students have performed well in environments where teachers have tenure, where teachers belong to unions and where unions can bargain. Why don't we just take what has worked in these successful environments and place them in unsuccessful environments with a few tweaks for individual circumstances?

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