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Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

cpwill

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folks.... this is where we should say "screw national sovereignty", and just go ahead and intervene. and no, a no-fly zone doesn't cut it.



TRIPOLI, Libya — Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia stormed the rebels controlling the town of Zawiyah on Saturday morning in what two residents described as a “massacre.”

“I am watching neighbors dying unarmed in front of their homes,” one resident said in a telephone interview, with the sounds of heavy weapons and machine-gun fire in the background. The resident said the militias were using tanks and heavy artillery, attacking from both the east and west gates of the town. “I don’t know how many are being killed, but I know my neighborhood is being killed,” the resident said...

The assault followed a day of brazen counterattacks by Colonel Qaddafi’s militia, which battled rebel forces on two fronts on Friday, firing on unarmed protesters in front of international news media and leaving the rebels seeking his ouster in disarray.

The militia’s actions seemed likely to stir renewed debate over international intervention to limit Colonel Qaddafi’s use of military power against his own citizens, possibly by imposing a no-flight zone.

The latest siege of Zawiyah began on Friday, when the elite Khamis Brigade, a militia named for the Qaddafi son who commands it, surrounded the town and opened fire with mortars, machine guns and other heavy weapons, witnesses said, in two separate skirmishes...
 
folks.... this is where we should say "screw national sovereignty", and just go ahead and intervene. and no, a no-fly zone doesn't cut it.

TRIPOLI, Libya — Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia stormed the rebels controlling the town of Zawiyah on Saturday morning in what two residents described as a “massacre.”

“I am watching neighbors dying unarmed in front of their homes,” one resident said in a telephone interview, with the sounds of heavy weapons and machine-gun fire in the background. The resident said the militias were using tanks and heavy artillery, attacking from both the east and west gates of the town. “I don’t know how many are being killed, but I know my neighborhood is being killed,” the resident said...

The assault followed a day of brazen counterattacks by Colonel Qaddafi’s militia, which battled rebel forces on two fronts on Friday, firing on unarmed protesters in front of international news media and leaving the rebels seeking his ouster in disarray.

The militia’s actions seemed likely to stir renewed debate over international intervention to limit Colonel Qaddafi’s use of military power against his own citizens, possibly by imposing a no-flight zone.

The latest siege of Zawiyah began on Friday, when the elite Khamis Brigade, a militia named for the Qaddafi son who commands it, surrounded the town and opened fire with mortars, machine guns and other heavy weapons, witnesses said, in two separate skirmishes...

Still, a no-fly zone and plenty of humanitarian aid is a good start. One we've neglected too long. It's time for the U.S. to take unilateral action. Others will fall in line. Who could possibly criticize our decision to intervene in this manner? To wait any longer would be a travesty.

I have this vision in my head of the rebels desperately hoping that their deaths are drawing attention and support from the rest of the world. We've simply got to act before the run out of warm bodies.
 
as the protesters in Iran chanted as they were dragged into darkened vans. "Obama, Obama, you are either with us or you are with them."
 
It's awful that this is allowed to go on. The man is simply slaughtering anyone who dares protest against his tyranny.
 
They don't want us to intervene. I say we don't intervene.

This is exactly what everyone around the world has been cryin' about for the past 30+ years; I say we give them exactly what they want.
 
They don't want us to intervene. I say we don't intervene.

This is exactly what everyone around the world has been cryin' about for the past 30+ years; I say we give them exactly what they want.

Screw the world, there are basic moral principles and if a tyrant starts massacring his population then I think an intervention is not merely necessary but is a must. I don't think the US alone should be the one to intervene there, I think the entire world should take act to stop the madness of the Gaddafi regime.

I also don't think the UN is capable of leading such intervention, considering it's only been until a few weeks ago that Libya was heading the UN human rights council,
what an organization of hypocrites it is.
 
Screw the world, there are basic moral principles and if a tyrant starts massacring his population then I think an intervention is not merely necessary but is a must. I don't think the US alone should be the one to intervene there, I think the entire world should take act to stop the madness of the Gaddafi regime.

I also don't think the UN is capable of leading such intervention, considering it's only been until a few weeks ago that Libya was heading the UN human rights council,
what an organization of hypocrites it is.

Believe me, when I say that I agree. But, alotta people have been claiming that America cocking things up. I think they should take this oppurtunity to show us how it's done; how their way of thinking is better.
 
Screw the world, there are basic moral principles and if a tyrant starts massacring his population then I think an intervention is not merely necessary but is a must. I don't think the US alone should be the one to intervene there, I think the entire world should take act to stop the madness of the Gaddafi regime.

I also don't think the UN is capable of leading such intervention, considering it's only been until a few weeks ago that Libya was heading the UN human rights council,
what an organization of hypocrites it is.

Let's not get hysterical here. While it is unfortunate that people have been killed it hardly seems like killing of the scope of Dufar where the world did nothing. If the U.S. was to get involved every time a few hundred people wanting to overthrow their government get killed we would be in tens of countries. Why?

Do you say the same thing about saudi Arabia, where they have said any protests will be clamped down on. Do we intervene in Iran where hundreds or thousands of protesters who did not take up arms are killed?

Is there some ratio you have that translates the amount of oil you produce into the number you are allowed to kill before we intervene.

Not to mention the fact that these are the same people that tolerated this regime for fourty years while he advanced terrorism in the world including killing a couple of hundred American citizens, many college kids. They did not care enough to throw him out then, why should we risk one American kid for them now???
 
Let's not get hysterical here. While it is unfortunate that people have been killed it hardly seems like killing of the scope of Dufar where the world did nothing. If the U.S. was to get involved every time a few hundred people wanting to overthrow their government get killed we would be in tens of countries. Why?

Do you say the same thing about saudi Arabia, where they have said any protests will be clamped down on. Do we intervene in Iran where hundreds or thousands of protesters who did not take up arms are killed?

Is there some ratio you have that translates the amount of oil you produce into the number you are allowed to kill before we intervene.

Not to mention the fact that these are the same people that tolerated this regime for fourty years while he advanced terrorism in the world including killing a couple of hundred American citizens, many college kids. They did not care enough to throw him out then, why should we risk one American kid for them now???

That purdy much sums it up, Apocalypse. The lack of knowledge on the side that thinks that American intervention is always bad has just been illustrated in living color.
 
It's not the US's role to help out in the revolutions of other countries. It never has been.
 
It's not the US's role to help out in the revolutions of other countries. It never has been.

Sure it has. We have done it enough times on each side of a potential revolution.
 
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Sure it has. We have done it enough times on each side of a revolution.

Not really. We haven't helped anybody. We've looked for our best interests. Just ask Cubans. Freed them fromt Spain only to install dictators.
 
Not really. We haven't helped anybody. We've looked for our best interests. Just ask Cubans. Freed them fromt Spain only to install dictators.

Well, powers don't altruistically help one another for the sake of it. It serves their interests to involve themselves.
 
What we should KNOW by this point is that intervention or non-intervention...there are nothing but no win scenarios here. If we get involved, radical Muslims and heck...lots of folks in Europe as well...will all scream about our evil intentions of stirring this all up as a plot to take their oil. If Obama acts, he gets nailed. If he doesnt act, he gets nailed. Obama is wearing Bush's boots right now...I wonder how comfortable he is in them.

I HOPE there are things going on with other nations. I HOPE our government is communicating with other nations on solutions. I dont think we should have intervened but I do think our message should have been clear...whatever that message is. Personally...I would like to see Obama go before the world, encourage the UN, NATO, and the AL to take clear and decisive action. I would also like to see him look right into the camera and promise to give them the same kind of support they have given the US.
 
Although I am assuming that that post would not have been liked by the both of you had I also inserted I am perfectly fine with action being taken for the perceived national interest, at least rhetorically (always depending upon the situation).
 
FWIW, there may be an old-fashioned siege underway at Zawiya. From the BBC:

1607: A doctor in Zawiya has told Sky News the city is being starved into submission, with supplies of food, fuel and medicine cut off.

In the larger scheme of things, the fighting is being concentrated in strategically important areas (mainly where large oil refineries are located). The Gadhafi forces lack the power to regain control of the entire country. They are focusing their efforts on a handful of strategic sites.

IMO, in those areas that the anti-Gadhafi forces cannot control, they should destroy the oil refineries. In doing so, they would deprive the Gadhafi military forces of fuel and, over time, fuel shortages could thwart their capacity to bring tanks and fighter jets into battle. At that point, the balance of power could shift decisively in favor of the anti-Gadhafi forces.
 
FWIW, there may be an old-fashioned siege underway at Zawiya. From the BBC:

1607: A doctor in Zawiya has told Sky News the city is being starved into submission, with supplies of food, fuel and medicine cut off.

In the larger scheme of things, the fighting is being concentrated in strategically important areas (mainly where large oil refineries are located). The Gadhafi forces lack the power to regain control of the entire country. They are focusing their efforts on a handful of strategic sites.

IMO, in those areas that the anti-Gadhafi forces cannot control, they should destroy the oil refineries. In doing so, they would deprive the Gadhafi military forces of fuel and, over time, fuel shortages could thwart their capacity to bring tanks and fighter jets into battle. At that point, the balance of power could shift decisively in favor of the anti-Gadhafi forces.

Potentially problematic in that if/when they (the revolution) do prevail, they will have crippled the the nations money tree moving forward.

Suppose if they know what they are doing they could "disable" the ability to produce. Not a bad idea. But actually destroying the refineries/oil fields does not sound like a good option.

.
 
Believe me, when I say that I agree. But, alotta people have been claiming that America cocking things up. I think they should take this oppurtunity to show us how it's done; how their way of thinking is better.

no. tempting as it is, a fit of pique is no reason to turn a blind eye to the slaughter of innocents.
 
It's not the US's role to help out in the revolutions of other countries. It never has been.

on the contrary; since our founding we have done so, the Founders were very open to the idea of aiding the American ideal spread, and were hardly above a little interference to spread the ideology of the "American Empire". i would urge you to read "Dangerous Nation" on precisely this topic.
 
It's not the US's role to help out in the revolutions of other countries. It never has been.

Sometimes, it comes to a point where it's not just about helping a revolution in another country. Just think how diffrently the past decade may have gone had we not ****ed anti-Saddam forces in the 90's, or had we not turned our back on the anti-government folks in Iran in '09.

I don't agree that we should land the first American unit in Libya, unless they're going into a free fire zone and are locked, cocked and ready to rock, but it would be a bad idea to turn our back on the rebels.
 
What we should KNOW by this point is that intervention or non-intervention...there are nothing but no win scenarios here. If we get involved, radical Muslims and heck...lots of folks in Europe as well...will all scream about our evil intentions of stirring this all up as a plot to take their oil. If Obama acts, he gets nailed. If he doesnt act, he gets nailed. Obama is wearing Bush's boots right now...I wonder how comfortable he is in them.

I HOPE there are things going on with other nations. I HOPE our government is communicating with other nations on solutions. I dont think we should have intervened but I do think our message should have been clear...whatever that message is. Personally...I would like to see Obama go before the world, encourage the UN, NATO, and the AL to take clear and decisive action. I would also like to see him look right into the camera and promise to give them the same kind of support they have given the US.

That's why I would like to let things fall apart and let people see just how important and positive American intervention has been over the last 70 years.
 
FWIW, there may be an old-fashioned siege underway at Zawiya. From the BBC:

1607: A doctor in Zawiya has told Sky News the city is being starved into submission, with supplies of food, fuel and medicine cut off.

In the larger scheme of things, the fighting is being concentrated in strategically important areas (mainly where large oil refineries are located). The Gadhafi forces lack the power to regain control of the entire country. They are focusing their efforts on a handful of strategic sites.

IMO, in those areas that the anti-Gadhafi forces cannot control, they should destroy the oil refineries. In doing so, they would deprive the Gadhafi military forces of fuel and, over time, fuel shortages could thwart their capacity to bring tanks and fighter jets into battle. At that point, the balance of power could shift decisively in favor of the anti-Gadhafi forces.

Until Iran sends a couple of super tankers full of fuel to a government controlled port
 
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