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Thread: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

  1. #71
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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    folks.... this is where we should say "screw national sovereignty", and just go ahead and intervene. and no, a no-fly zone doesn't cut it.



    TRIPOLI, Libya — Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia stormed the rebels controlling the town of Zawiyah on Saturday morning in what two residents described as a “massacre.”

    “I am watching neighbors dying unarmed in front of their homes,” one resident said in a telephone interview, with the sounds of heavy weapons and machine-gun fire in the background. The resident said the militias were using tanks and heavy artillery, attacking from both the east and west gates of the town. “I don’t know how many are being killed, but I know my neighborhood is being killed,” the resident said...

    The assault followed a day of brazen counterattacks by Colonel Qaddafi’s militia, which battled rebel forces on two fronts on Friday, firing on unarmed protesters in front of international news media and leaving the rebels seeking his ouster in disarray.

    The militia’s actions seemed likely to stir renewed debate over international intervention to limit Colonel Qaddafi’s use of military power against his own citizens, possibly by imposing a no-flight zone.

    The latest siege of Zawiyah began on Friday, when the elite Khamis Brigade, a militia named for the Qaddafi son who commands it, surrounded the town and opened fire with mortars, machine guns and other heavy weapons, witnesses said, in two separate skirmishes...
    I'm sick of us having to zoom to everyone's 'rescue' after they start and continue their own bull****.

    I'm sick and tired of the international 'hatred of Americans' - especially from the Middle East.

    there are dozens of countries closer to them, being affected more directly, who have the capabilities to intervene - why not expect them to do this?
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There are alternatives to military intervention and even "no fly" zones. For example, the U.S. could covertly provide the anti-Gadhafi forces with a limited arsenal of anti-aircraft missiles to take out Gadhafi's fighter jets and his helicopters. Once the regime starts losing those military assets, its conduct on the battlefield would shift and the anti-Gadhafi forces' military prospects with respect to capturing the rest of Libya would be enhanced.
    That's reasonable. If it has a good chance to work then I'd agree we should try that before direct US military intervention.

    Something has to be done about Qaddafi's tanks and artillery as well. But taking out his air assets would be a positive step.
    Last edited by Ron Mars; 03-09-11 at 09:39 AM.
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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    How about South Korea? Will that work as an acceptable example?
    If North Korea had succeeded in conquering South Korea, the territory controlled by totalitarian governments would have expanded and the risk to neighboring states would have increased. At that time, the situation in Japan was still quite fragile with reconstruction under way.

    In Libya, if the Gadhafi regime prevails (unlikely in the end, though it could hold on to part of the country for an extended period of time if it can gain/hold some of the oil facilities), that status quo would remain essentially unchanged. If Gadhafi's opponents win--and I hope they do--then there may be opportunity for a friendlier Libya (to Western interests), though the transition to political stability could be treacherous.

    Even if one applied the 1950s era "domino theory," Libya's revolution and North Korea's invasion of South Korea are not analogous.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    So since you're a conservative and apperently do have the know how.

    Please explain how YOU would achieve peace and freedom in this world? I'm curious since it's one of my ambitions.
    Reagan had it right. Read a little about his thoughts on the subject.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I'm sick of us having to zoom to everyone's 'rescue' after they start and continue their own bull****.

    I'm sick and tired of the international 'hatred of Americans' - especially from the Middle East.

    there are dozens of countries closer to them, being affected more directly, who have the capabilities to intervene - why not expect them to do this?
    Because the other African and ME nations aren't going to do anything even if they could. The UN is still having meetings.

    The Libyan people have little love for the US, but intervening on their side will not be forgotten. Neither will sitting on our hands.

    There is a reason the people of Libya are looking toward the US for help. Our enemies are gauging our response as well and so far they have been encouraged.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    That's reasonable. If it has a good chance to work then I'd agree we should try that before direct US military intervention.

    Something has to be done about Qaddafi's tanks and artillery as well. But taking out his air assets would be a positive step.
    I favor the covert military aid approach. If the U.S. joins a no fly zone, I would not object, but believe the Transitional National Council in Libya should directly and formally request the no fly zone before it is created. However, I don't believe the U.S. should directly intervene to topple Gadhafi's regime. That latter outcome would create an opportunity for Gadhafi's loyalists to recast the revolution as a foreign undertaking and even after the regime is driven from power, the risk of a civil war would be greatly increased.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    Because the other African and ME nations aren't going to do anything even if they could. The UN is still having meetings.

    The Libyan people have little love for the US, but intervening on their side will not be forgotten. Neither will sitting on our hands.

    There is a reason the people of Libya are looking toward the US for help. Our enemies are gauging our response as well and so far they have been encouraged.
    We are not the ever-forgiving parent who continuously bails the bad child out of jail.

    And I don't know where this 'the US IS the world's savior' sentiment even came from - we most certainly have abstained in the past from involving in the heavier affairs of the world and entered late into WWI, WWII - and so on - until it more heavily affected us.

    All I know is that in the last decade our efforts to intervene on a country's behalf has created such serious problems for ourselves that we haven't dug ourselves out, yet - and we're still quite immersed in THOSE issues.

    This would just add another layer of **** onto our problems and complicate things even more.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    If North Korea had succeeded in conquering South Korea, the territory controlled by totalitarian governments would have expanded and the risk to neighboring states would have increased. At that time, the situation in Japan was still quite fragile with reconstruction under way.

    In Libya, if the Gadhafi regime prevails (unlikely in the end, though it could hold on to part of the country for an extended period of time if it can gain/hold some of the oil facilities), that status quo would remain essentially unchanged. If Gadhafi's opponents win--and I hope they do--then there may be opportunity for a friendlier Libya (to Western interests), though the transition to political stability could be treacherous.

    Even if one applied the 1950s era "domino theory," Libya's revolution and North Korea's invasion of South Korea are not analogous.
    I was responding to the question posed by Radical Ron (no relation)
    Originally Posted by Radical Ron
    Why is intervention seemingly so necessary.


    In my opinion South Korea is an excellent example of the free people of the world standing up to aggression. At that time it was communism. Today it’s tyrannical despots slaughtering their own people.

    Either in 1930’s Europe, 1950’s South Korea or today in Libya intervention was/is necessary. That’s the point I’m making. I can’t speak for adpst, but it seems that was his point as well.

    I’m well aware of the obvious strategic differences between 1950’s Korea and Libya today.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I favor the covert military aid approach. If the U.S. joins a no fly zone, I would not object, but believe the Transitional National Council in Libya should directly and formally request the no fly zone before it is created. However, I don't believe the U.S. should directly intervene to topple Gadhafi's regime. That latter outcome would create an opportunity for Gadhafi's loyalists to recast the revolution as a foreign undertaking and even after the regime is driven from power, the risk of a civil war would be greatly increased.
    I don't believe a no-fly-zone is a good idea. It would take a massive air effort to be effective and would hinder, but not stop, Qaddafi's ground offensives. Taking out his air assets quickly and decisively is a better option over a NFZ.

    Any effective measure short of direct US military intervention should be tried first. I think we're past diplomacy with Qaddafi. Besides some sort of armed intervention to cripple his military I don't know what else will work.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Qaddaffi launches counterattack: "massacre" claimed by witnesses

    With respect to the Transitional National Council (TNC), it seems that they have called for a no-fly zone minutes ago. From BBC:

    1346: The first meeting of the Transitional National Council, the administration set up to represent opponents of Col Gaddafi is being held in Benghazi. Spokesman Mustafa Gheriani told the BBC World Service they were trying to build a government from scratch. "We would like the international communtiy to recognise the council and not to deal with Mr Gaddafi anymore." He called for a no-fly zone in Libya and tactical strikes on some of Gaddafi strongholds: "We need everyhing short of having foot soldiers on our land," he said.

    1348: Mr Gheriani of the TNC also said Libya was rich in resources including oil, and "we will remember who our friends are and we will definitely reward them greatly". He added: "We are secure in the east of the country for at least six months."
    The latter statement could be aimed at helping make it more in various countries' national interest to recognize the TNC and participate/support a no-fly zone.

    IMO, formal diplomatic recognition should be given to the TNC. I would not object to U.S. participation in a no-fly zone given the TNC's request for it. Arab League support for the no-fly zone would be ideal.

    Having said that, I still do not believe U.S. military intervention should go beyond that. Hence, I don't believe the U.S. should carry out tactical air strikes, except those that might be necessary to implement a no-fly zone. It can and should provide weapons to the TNC and perhaps satellite Intelligence. But the fighting should be carried out by Libyans.

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